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Restoration Beyond the Couch
The Beyond the Couch with Dr. Lee Long podcast is intended solely for general informational purposes and does not represent the practice of medicine, therapeutic and psychiatric services, nursing, or other professional health care services. It also does not constitute the provision of medical, therapeutic or psychiatric advice, and no doctor/patient relationship is established. The information on this podcast and any materials linked from it are used at the user's own risk. The content provided through this podcast should not be considered a replacement for professional medical, therapeutic, or psychiatric advice, diagnosis, or treatment. It is important that users do not ignore or postpone seeking medical, therapeutic, or psychiatric advice for any health or mental health condition they might have, and should always consult with their health care professionals regarding such conditions.
Restoration Beyond the Couch
Breaking Barriers: The Synergy of Performance Psychology and Success
Ever wondered what it takes to transform mental barriers into stepping stones for success? Join us for an enlightening journey with Dr. Tracy Carrington, a renowned performance specialist, as she unravels the nuances of performance psychology. Dr. Carrington shares her compelling journey from a collegiate athlete grappling with mental challenges to discovering the power of performance training. She emphasizes the critical distinctions between clinical therapy and performance coaching, highlighting the ethical boundaries she maintains while working hand-in-hand with clinical professionals to provide holistic care for her clients.
Get inspired by the incredible story of an athlete who went from being a walk-on in pole vaulting to achieving national fame. We explore the unique differences between athletic programs in Tennessee and Colorado, and the evolution of women's pole vaulting. This segment underscores the indispensable role of support systems and technology in the success of athletes worldwide. Through the lens of integrity, preparation, and effective problem-solving, we discuss how these elements come together to ensure seamless support for athletes, even across international boundaries.
Finally, immerse yourself in the emotionally charged journey of an athlete's eight-year quest to qualify for the Olympics. We highlight the sacrifices, emotional highs and lows, and the unwavering support of a dedicated team. Dr. Carrington also shares universal performance strategies that transcend sports, offering valuable techniques for mental resilience applicable in various aspects of life. From the importance of a robust support network to the intersection of physical and mental training, this episode is packed with insights that will empower you to achieve excellence in any field.
Learn More about Mind Game Performance and Dr. Carrington: https://tracy-carrington.squarespace.com/
The Thank you Welcome, dr Tracy Carrington. Oh thanks, it's good to have you. It's good to have you, it's good to be here.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me, yeah of course, of course.
Speaker 1:Well, I wanted you to be here, I wanted to have this time, because I think you are a remarkable human being and I think you do some really cool things, and I would love our listeners to know more about who you are and what you do. And I would love our listeners to know more about who you are and what you do, and so can you describe for our listeners what it is that you do?
Speaker 2:Oh wow, this is like my elevator speech that I didn't practice right.
Speaker 2:No, okay, so I am a performance specialist, I'm not a clinical therapist, and I think that's where our relationship you know we've developed it over the years has been because I work specifically in the performance arena, right, whether that's with athletes or business professionals or performing artists, helping them work on the mental skills of performance, work on the mental skills of performance, um, but when you're doing that, often things come up, clinical things come up that go outside of what, um, what I specialize in. And so, um, coming back to you, cause I also think you're remarkable, um, at what you do, and why I'm actually sitting here is because, um, I can remember seeing your work before I actually ever met you, cause I had yes, cause I had yes, because I had clients and that were working with both of us.
Speaker 2:They were working with you from a clinical perspective, working with me from performance perspective, and I remember just being like, wait, who are you working with?
Speaker 2:Because I always I like the things that the conversations that you were having with them and they really overlapped well with the work that I was also trying to do. And so finally I think it came down to I was like I got to meet this guy, right, and then, yeah, that's that's how we met. But I got into this field specifically because I was an athlete at University of Tennessee, this field specifically because I was an athlete at University of Tennessee and I came in and they had pretty high expectations of what they thought I was supposed to be doing and that for sure I really underperformed and it wasn't a physical thing but it was really mental, and so they made me go work with the performance specialist who is on their staff and and is the head of their kind of mental training, and I mean I guess you could say it made a pretty um it made a lasting impression um, because for so long, you know, if, if I performed well, I wasn't necessarily aware of what were the things I was doing.
Speaker 2:That was helping me perform well, and so having someone who could teach me those things helped me become aware of where I was derailing myself, um, and the things when I was performing at my best, and so that kind of snowballed into all right, I think this is what I want to do.
Speaker 1:I love that and I will say you you started in the beginning there and said I'm not a clinical person. One of the things that I so respect so respect about you, and you've never wavered on this is that you are so clear in your own mind. You're clear about where you draw your lines as to what is clinical and what is performance, and some of those lines I might say well, I think you might be able to like it makes sense for you to step here, but that's not your line and you don't.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I just think that is so. That's really remarkable.
Speaker 2:Well, I think I mean that's important part of any good work.
Speaker 2:And you and I have had long conversations about just from an ethical perspective. You know, to me it's bad business, right, if I'm trying to do work with someone that goes outside of. You know what my training is, what my expertise is. You know I'm doing harm there and specifically because our boundaries are really different in the work that we do, you know, I travel with teams, I go into their practices, and so you know, if I was going into that environment and I'm working on really deep clinical things, now I'm, I'm becoming part of the distraction in that, and so that's where it becomes so important that that I have good relationships with you know, clinical practices like restoration, because I can, I can keep those somewhat separate. So I know, ok, this person is getting the clinical work they they're done, that they need to do, but then now I can step in and help them in those moments.
Speaker 2:Okay, this is the time where we need to set that aside so that we can stick the landing, you know, so that we can be ready to react to the gun, um, so that we can get our mind right to go compete and perform Right, um, but if they're not doing that work, I don't work with them. That's kind of that's another one of my standards. Like, if something comes up in our session and I recognize that they need some of that additional work, that's not mine. And whether that's they need to go meet with a dietician, they need to go work, you know, meet with an orthopedic surgeon, because maybe they're kind of, you know, ignoring a really bad injury, um, or they need a clinical therapist, um, if they, if they are unwilling to do that, then to me continuing to work with them is just it's bad business.
Speaker 2:Um I'm not doing I'm not doing a good service for them.
Speaker 1:Right and that that makes sense because, you know, sometimes I think about um. You know, when you sign up for a trainer, let's say like a coach, and they say we need, we need three months. I need a three month minimum because if you're going to see progress, you're, it's going to take you X amount of time and so I need to make sure that we're making that commitment to each other. It's like you're doing the same thing. If you're going to see a true mental mindset shift, then I need to know that you're committed to get all the ancillary from you I would imagine from your perspective the ancillary things out of our way to make sure we make progress here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I'm sure this is same for you in your practice, where you have check-ins with clients to kind of I will make light of it usually to say, well, this is usually where we're either going to move forward or you're going to fire me, because this is kind of our point of okay, we're going to start making steps here and making some changes, and if they're unwilling to continue to work with someone that's not putting in the work and the effort, then again that's someone that's not putting in the work and the effort, then again that's that doesn't really benefit anyone, so I usually won't continue working in those situations.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when, what was your? What was your college sport?
Speaker 2:So I pole vaulted in college, yeah, yeah, but I actually, funny enough, I started out as a distance runner at university of Colorado. Um, yeah, so I was a walk-on distance runner for university of Colorado and at the time I did not know how good they were. I mean, it's kind of comical when you think about it, because I came in and they had just won the national championship for cross country and I mean, this is before social media.
Speaker 3:Okay, no judgment here people are.
Speaker 2:This is before right this is before the internet, okay, you know it was big. We're dating ourselves I know, but it was before it was easily accessed the way you know, right now people can just google and look things up. Um, and so it wasn't. You know, my sister ran for university of texas and so I was very familiar with kind of the southwest conference at that time. But I wasn't, I wasn't with. You know, colorado, apart from what a cool school and I love skiing and um, and I know they're yeah, and I know they're good.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I want to, I want to go do something different, I want to go beyond, and so I walked onto this team, a team that you know is full of you know women who are on the like in the hall of fame, and you know Olympians and are just unbelievable. And so I was barely getting to travel to to events I mean like scrapping by, like maybe occasionally I get they'd take me along, and and that's when I saw women pole vaulting and um, I'd always wanted to pole vault, but at the time I'm going to date myself again.
Speaker 2:Women weren't allowed to pole vaulting. And, um, I'd always wanted to pole vault, but at the time I'm gonna date myself again. Women weren't allowed to pole vault, right, oh, really yeah. So when I was in high school, um, I really wanted to pull ball because I had a gymnastics background and I could. Just the mechanics of it just made sense and I saw it and I had a good upper body strength. I could do a bunch of pull-ups, more pull-ups than most of the guys could do.
Speaker 2:And so, I thought like I could do that, like I know how to. I, I the mechanics, just made sense in my head. Um, and so I went to the coach and said hey, I want to pull vaults. And the coach said you know, women can't pull vaults. And at which point I clearly was like hey, like my dad said, women can do anything they want to do and my coach was like no, no, like really you're not allowed to pole vault.
Speaker 2:And so it wasn't until I was in college and I would go to these meets, I'd start seeing these women pole vaulting and they weren't jumping very high, like you know. To give a reference, I think you know, at the olympics, the, was you know high 16s, were you know what?
Speaker 3:was scoring.
Speaker 2:These girls were jumping nine feet Right and that's like. I mean, there are girls in high school. You know you go to high school meet. You're going to see girls at 11, 12 and really good ones at 13 or 14 feet now. So nine feet was like such a low level of athletic performance but they're scoring points for the team. So in my mind I thought maybe if I do that, Colorado doesn't have any pole vaulters, then I could, you know, I could actually get to travel and hang out with my friends and do that. And so I went home that summer and started vaulting. Sorry, I have to pause you.
Speaker 1:Here's what I love is you're already like what a problem solver Like you're thinking, like how you approach this is from such a problem solving. I love that, and that's one of the things that I really love about your work is that it truly is like okay, let's get in here. We're not going to be you weren't, you weren't going to be held down by the. You can't do something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's figure this out. That's I love that.
Speaker 1:Sorry to interrupt.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, I love it, that's good. Um, yeah, I know I'm rambling on that, on that, no, this is brilliant, yeah. So, um, yeah, I saw these women pull vaulting. I went back, I, my dad, found a great coach in Fort, you know, in the Abilene I think is. Yeah, it was in Abilene, um, and there's another coach in Fort Worth.
Speaker 2:I did a lot of work with who's kind of the guru here and suddenly I went from kind of being this walk-on to being ranked nationally as a vaulter. Like my jumps were up there, good enough to go to nationals, and so suddenly schools were looking at me from a recruiting standpoint. Tennessee was a really strong pole vault school and kind of field event at the time, whereas Colorado was more focused on the distance running and so the coach just wasn't interested in showing that, but Tennessee was. So the expectation when I came into Tennessee was you're supposed to go to nationals, you're supposed to score at nationals, and I didn't do that that first year, and so then that was kind of where, yeah, where it snowballed into full bolting, I guess.
Speaker 1:And so to translate to today, so Tennessee would be sort of like the NIL money, whereas whereas Boulder would not have been. Yeah, no, no, and I there, there wasn't any of that then. No, that's brand new.
Speaker 2:No, but they, they definitely were, uh, using um at the time because it was so became so popular that women were pole vaulting. So Tennessee was was definitely excited to have, you know, good vaulters in any of the programs were, because that was where the media attention was at the time. It was like oh women are vaulting, so I came in at a great time. They treated me really well. It was it's an incredible athletic program, so yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, and it set you on a really cool trajectory where you're not only, not only did it change your life, but that moment in time is changing, like the world, and I'm not being I'm not being hyperbolic by saying that, because, if I'm, if I'm not mistaken, you work with folks all over the world.
Speaker 2:I do and it's it's been a strange transition. I guess that I didn't really even conceive was possible. Yeah, that my practice could go to that level. So I think we have a lot of the internet type, whether it's Zoom or FaceTime, whatsapp. I mean those things have just opened up. At the time, I think, when I started, skype was huge in opening up the world and because I don't have some of the same clinical boundaries that clinical practitioners have, I could go and proceed that. But, that being said, I still had to make sure in each of those places I had good clinical references so that if I'm in another country and something comes up, I have people that I can, I can get those. Um athletes too.
Speaker 1:What? Uh, that's gotta be a really difficult thing to sort out, because how do you know, like, first of all, how do you make contact with them? And then how do you know that they're? I hate to say it this way, but how do you know that they're? I'll say it this way how do you know, like, first of all, how do you make contact with them, and then how do you know that they're I hate to say it this way, but how do you know that they're? I'll say it this way how do you know if they're going to provide a service that is effective for your, for your athletes?
Speaker 2:For what I want. So I don't accept the job until I know I have that in place. Like that's just, that's kind of okay people. Now you see why I love this. No, I mean, that's seriously like that's part of my criteria is making sure that those resources are in place so that.
Speaker 2:And so usually you know the times, like going to new zealand, I made sure I had people contacts there in place to know, like, if things come up, I have resources there to get them to where they need to go. Um, you know paris same thing, so I, um, you know Paris same thing, so I had people readily available. And then the same thing with um the, just the options of Skype and zoom and FaceTime. That has helped tremendously. But, as you know, sometimes you need people on the ground, yeah, to help get people um where they need to go. So I haven't been to a place yet where I've had that. That dilemma but that's always in my the forefront of my head when I accept a job is making sure those pieces are in place before, um, yeah, jumping in.
Speaker 1:Sure, and that's that's. There's so much integrity involved in that from my perspective.
Speaker 2:I appreciate that we'll think, gosh, I want to see you do well, and sometimes there may be the temptation to get ahead of ourselves and yeah, yeah, and I think, starting out, I mean there were, it wasn't perfect and I think, like most people can say, I made mistakes that, um, you know, and I was fortunate that they weren't life altering. Uh, mistakes, but little ones to go like man, you know there's a better way to do this and I need to figure out a better way to do this.
Speaker 1:The problem solving.
Speaker 2:Well, I love, I love a good, I love a good challenge. You know, focus mindset right Like what's the challenge. How do we figure this out?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so what's been one of the most intriguing, like amazing, things that you've experienced in this role?
Speaker 2:I would say like a really cool journey that I got to kind of be on with with a particular athlete and I can't get too specific. Um was an athlete who you know for for those of you who don't know about the Olympics, it's not just a one year thing. Right, they are on this four year campaign and for some of them it's even an eight year campaign because they were on it for the last one and they didn't make it, or they did and they didn't perform that way they wanted to. So it can be this like really long, and just think about that for a moment, like when's the last time? You know, a lot of people have had a goal they've gone after for eight years and sacrificed everything, right, they've sacrificed time with their family, they've sacrificed time with their friends. You know the toll that their bodies had, the discipline that they have to have to like just go in and consistently pursuing that goal. So, um, yeah, to be on a true journey with this one client who was like right on the edge of even getting getting there, um, and and it kind of was looking like it wasn't going to happen, um, but then you know some, some pieces and some just like final, like clutch performances that just kind of helped in the overall ranking that ended up allowing this individual to actually make it.
Speaker 2:And so you know. Then there's this excitement of like and having to shift from the goal being like okay, I just want to make it to the Olympics too. Okay, now we want to perform at the Olympics, right, right. And so that had to be. We had to pivot really quick because didn't even find out that this particular individual was going to be making it until pretty close to go time, right. And so now we're having to, while we're celebrating the accomplishment of like, we made it, but now we're having to quickly, right. So for eight years it's been a goal to just make it, to get there to get there and now we have to.
Speaker 2:okay, we don't want to just get there Now, we want to perform. And so then to have that athlete be able to go and, um, you know, one of the things that was said was it's it was the first time I was able to stand in my nerves and and and be okay with them. I can't say I was comfortable, but like I could stand in them, like I could stay there in in my nerves and and be okay. And so athlete actually performed really well, made it to the finals, um, and it was huge.
Speaker 2:And so to just like get to witness that and know, like know all the things that they go through, you know, even just like little things, so just trying to get tickets so a significant other can actually make it and see the competition right, because the tickets are all sold out, and so you know little stressors like that that um would probably undo a lot of people and they're having to, you you know, manage that and you know the food that they're eating and the schedules of the buses and sleep hygiene and, um, just the roller coaster of not making it going. To make it not making it going. I mean we went, you know going through this whole grieving this grieving process of like.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to make it. I might make it. I'm not going to make it I might.
Speaker 2:I mean it. It was. That was really, um yeah, that was remarkable, and I'm not trying to take away from the other athletes that I also got to support, but that one just was one that really um yeah, stood out for sure.
Speaker 1:Well, sure, because it's you're. You're part of the team and you're part of this athlete's team, and I'm sure that every athlete at that level has a team of people. I'm certain of it. Yeah, that they have that, that it takes to help them achieve at the level that they're achieving, right.
Speaker 2:And I met from other athletes that I'm on their team.
Speaker 1:No, no, I get it, yeah, okay, I totally get it. Yeah, because it's no, I get it, I totally get it Because each one had a different story. Absolutely. And yet there's certain aspects of being on certain teams with certain individuals, where it's like the rise and the fall, the excitement. It doesn't take away anything from anybody else, it's just that that left such an impression. Yeah for sure.
Speaker 2:But I think for me too, like I just um it's not even just about like the high level Cause a lot, of, a lot of times it's like oh, you went to the Olympics but, like you know, last night I was at a JV um volleyball game and you know, I just done a presentation with this team. So now I'm kind of seeing, like, are they actually implementing the things we talked about? And I'm seeing them kind of starting out and they're on this role and it's looking good. And then I start seeing them. You know, some mistakes happen and it's spiraling and it's like all right, this is going to be interesting, let's kind of see. And so to see, you know, 14, 15 year olds struggling and trying to work through that like I also get great satisfaction out of moments like that to see them like fighting back. You know, teaching people like how to have courage.
Speaker 2:you know, because that's a big one we talk about is, you know courage and I always quote princess diaries like it's not the absence of fear you know, she says this in there, but I think it's Maya Angelou's quote, um, but I always quote it from princess Sorry, sorry, okay, that's not a perfect but um yeah, that, it's not that absence of fear, but rather you know that there's something more important than that fear. So teaching them to have to face their fear, um well, it's not courage if there's no fear. Absolutely. There's no bravery if there's no fear, it's just I'm walking through something that's in my experience.
Speaker 1:I guess I would say normal, right, but when we experience fear, like you're saying, the courage is I have to grab something extra courage to take with me to go through this, because otherwise I wouldn't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I love that I was listening to um, one of my really good friends does another podcast and I was listening to conversation between and I know both of them really well and, um, one of the guys works for the diamondbacks and he was saying he was describing mental performance and kind of like how training mental performance? And he said, um, it's not a mental performance is not, um, positive thinking. Right, it's mental performance, is positive action, kind of regardless of what you're thinking Right. And so, um, I think that's a big part of the practice of in the way that I like to approach it too is like, what are the actions you're going to take? Right, cause we can't control what happened, but we can control how we respond to that, and I like that Cause I think you and I have a very similar approach.
Speaker 1:Spot on with that. I was just thinking that the study that we finished a couple of years ago with depression that's one of the things that I talk about this often because it was such a I feel like it was such a monumental outcome is that problem solving? That's why I love that you're always problem solving. We talk about that a lot in our conversations, about our work, but problem solving helped people who were struggling with depression, who had chronic depression, 15 years of intractable depression. That teaching them how to problem solve, not for other things, not for the environment per se, but for themselves. What do I want out of me? It's just like what you're talking about with the, with your friend on their podcast talking about. It's really about what? How do I want to behave? In other words, in your world.
Speaker 2:You can control exactly that. You have control over right the actions you take. You are in control of your actions right.
Speaker 1:So in your world it's how do I want to perform.
Speaker 2:In my world it's how do I want to behave, but we're saying the exact same thing, yeah, which is why I think we I think we compliment each other well in that, because it's speaking that same language. Right, no, go ahead. I was just saying, like often when I know I have a client who's working with a clinical therapist, I usually want to find out like well, what did they say, or what was their feedback.
Speaker 2:And I like to say that to finding out what does a coach say, because I'm trying to figure out how to work with you know what they have, versus like crashing against it, like I don't want. I don't want to go like wait, this one said this and this one said this, so, and sometimes it's even interpreting like, okay, well, this might be how they were. You know meaning for this to be used, cause I'm sure, as you know, sometimes you think you've had a really clear message with the client and then later you come back in and you're like, wow, okay, that's different than what I thought you got from that.
Speaker 1:I thought I said these things, that got interpreted Sure, and and that's. You know, we talk about proprioception. I mean, I know, in your world with athletes you talk about proprioception. It's how does my body move through gravity, how do I navigate gravity with my own body? I think is maybe a gross way of saying what proprioception is. And in psychology we look at as we look at it as what is my perceptual understanding, and that's that metaphysical proprioception I call it is that?
Speaker 1:how do I ingest the world and through what filter do I see it? And you know, you watch somebody run and you think, oh gosh, they don't have proprioception, they don't. They don't see like that, they look like Phoebe, you know, and they may be, you know, flailing about. And we sometimes see that in the perceptual understanding, psychologically speaking, and that's how we gauge where somebody is perceptually is, by how wait, how did you hear that? How did that work out? And so that again, instinctually on your part, I love that. That's what how you walk this through with people is. You're working with proprioception, but also that perceptual understanding.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:And that's where I think too. That's, you know, where I think ours crosses, but does it compliments, compliments, yeah.
Speaker 2:The way that I really like to work with athletes, and I'm sure you do too, is there's that top down approach, but then there's also the bottom up, and so the top down being, you know, the mental skills to help manage performance, but then the bottom up being how do I manage my body to manage my mind? Right, right, because you know, sometimes we're the feigning being. How do I manage my body to manage my mind? Right, right, because you know, sometimes we're the feigning goat.
Speaker 3:Right, right.
Speaker 2:And every. If you haven't seen videos of a feigning goat, then you need to like look it up, stop and.
Speaker 3:Google that Stop and.
Speaker 2:Google it Cause it's funny, but it's actually, it's actually kind of sad.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, cause they, they have such a heightened state of um, a stress response, that they pass out. And part of why cause, in my mind, I was having this conversation with a client who works with a lot of horses and things like that, and so we were having this conversation like hey, don't be the fainting goat. And she's like yeah, it's really sad about those fainting goats because they breed them so that if, like coyotes attack the, the herd, then that one will pass out. The coyote will get that instead of injuring eight or 10 of them. Um, so they really are the sacrificial goat, um in in that herd to kind of protect the rest of the thing.
Speaker 2:But the response being, you know, in performance we sometimes get those the white knuckles, that heightened state of stress. And so a big part is helping, you know, my clients and athletes understand what those responses are and then how they can manage that. And the cool part is they're athletes. So they really buy into that, like hey, you're an athlete, like here's a new technique of how to manage your body, whether that's, you know, learning how to manage their eyesight Right. So, because they'll get into a really heightened state of stress, eyes will be really sharp. So even just like learning how to relax their vision, as you know, a a way as a relaxation technique, and that has been, um, it's fun, right. I think it's fun working them from kind of both sides.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, because some people, like you said, some people are going to be more geared for the, for the top down, the logic to the practical, and then other people are going to be more geared towards the bottom up, which is the experience to them, the logic. Yeah, I think that's, I think it's great, when you like, if we think about all these athletes that you're working with in this, this high level of performance. You don't only work with athletes, right, right, you work with executives who are high level, high performers, absolutely. So how does that translate?
Speaker 2:Um well, do you want me to first share how I got into that, because I think that one's that this story always kind of makes me laugh. So I was working with a, the son of a business professional, so to speak and so I'd been doing work with him and he started, you know, kind of asking like hey, do you ever work with you know kind of business type clients? And I was like no, like that's not really my training, it's not really what I'm good at. I don't. You know, no, I don't really know how I would, I would even do that. And he's like I like I think you could do this. So here I have this guy who's like he's having to convince me, like kind of sell me, that he should be my client. I'm like okay, like I mean, we can try this out, let's kind of see how this goes. And and from that, as I started working with him, that was when I began to realize a lot of the crossover between that.
Speaker 2:So I don't ever claim to be an expert in business, but I do understand people, I do understand performance, I do understand helping get the best out of performance. I do, and I think one of the things I feel like is my purpose is helping people get the right people that they need.
Speaker 1:Right, yes, which is how you approach the athlete, I need to have, I need, if I need a dietician, if I need a mental health, a clinical person, if I need an orthopedic surgeon.
Speaker 1:You started off with that. It's like you get, you have to have your team right, but, but what you're doing, I think, is what you're saying, at least is what I've experienced in working with you is is that you also take that person and say okay, you're the hub you need to get the people that are going to. Let's help you. Find the people that are going to help you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and a lot of that I mean similarly and we've talked about this is just by asking questions and finding out kind of what is you know, what is going on, where are their struggles? And then that's usually where I'm better able to identify like who, who they need you know and get them in that direction. And one of the things I've always respected about you is when you don't know something, you'll say yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't know and like, hey, let me check on that. Or let me ask someone else and, um, I think we kind of share that similar thing, Like I'm I'm not afraid to say, hey, I don't know, but let me look into that, let me research that.
Speaker 1:Um, it's a research background 've geek out on the science part of it. So, yeah, that makes two of us and yeah, I appreciate you saying that it's. It's uh to me being like I always, I always want to be a learner. I always want to learn more and know more, and you know when will it be enough. You know when will you be to the point where you've learned enough? The answer is more.
Speaker 2:Right no.
Speaker 1:I don't. I don't ever want to stop learning, and I feel like you're the same way and knowing that we can never know everything.
Speaker 2:That's wisdom right, right, right and part of the beauty of not know.
Speaker 1:You're exactly right.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm saying that because there's this, this children's book that I would always read to my son, and it was the cookies bite-sized life lessons. Did you ever have that?
Speaker 2:one in your in your mix, but it was great because it would have these you know kind of core values. It'd be like, you know, optimistic, you know, oh, yay, I still have, you know, half a cookie left. Pessimistic, oh no, I only have half a cookie left. Um, but wisdom was the last page of this book and I always liked it because it was a way to teach you know my son about you know kind of different, kind of core principles.
Speaker 2:And in wisdom, it said I used to think I knew everything there was to know about baking cookies. Now I realize I only know about a chip's worth. And to me, like when I think of being wise and having wisdom, is recognizing how little you know and realizing you know that you constantly have ways to learn and grow. And so if that's what I expect my clients to do, then I think you know we have to be doing the same thing as well and constantly being, you know, looking at ourselves, figuring out how can we learn and grow and do better. And and to quote you know, my, my mentor, he would always say you know green and growing, and if not, you're just dead fruit on the vine ready to be picked. And so he was like gotta be green and growing, green and growing, and, and I always liked that. So it's like anytime.
Speaker 2:I myself maybe um stuck in my ways where I'm thinking like, oh well, like I know this um, it's usually where I have to do some quick self-check and go okay, we got some green and grind to do here baby yeah, because we don't want to be picked from the no no, we're about to get slaughtered and you know, the thing to me that's so fun about this is that we can call it wisdom.
Speaker 1:I would I, I and I would agree.
Speaker 2:And I wasn't saying we're so wise. That wasn't what I was meaning. It just made me think of that.
Speaker 1:But I think to acknowledge that is is appropriate, yeah, is to say that we have grown to a point I've grown to a point in my career. You've grown to a point in your career to where we are wise enough to say, because wisdom is a spectrum, right, we're not saying we're the wisest of all, like that we're somehow a God. No, absolutely not. But what I think you are saying, and I'm concurring with, is that we've both grown to a point to where we're wise enough to say, I don't know, yeah, and I think it takes some humility to say that Absolutely. And I think that for me, part of the I don't know that's exciting is the idea that I get to call up a buddy.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, I get to call up Tracy and go oh my gosh, what's your thought on this? And we get to have a fun hour long conversation, right that? It's like that we get to to to share with each other what we know, which may I feel like it makes both of us better. And then it's a piece of saying like it's, it's a piece of of connecting, which I think is really cool.
Speaker 2:And I think that you know it goes back to even kind of the corporate consulting that you're talking about, where I think sometimes leaders you know whether it's a leader of a practice, whether it's the leader of a you know division, one team or a professional team, whether it's a CEO. Sometimes there's this like pressure of like, oh, I'm, I'm in charge, so I'm supposed to know, and so, like one of the first things and my research for my dissertation was on coaches and job transition. So how do, like new head coaches come in and like, create a program, you know, get the right personnel, build a foundation, develop trust, you know all of those aspects. And so when you know, when you get to that top, one of the big things that came out from that research was this idea of having outside people that you could go to and talk to. And you know, I have my own private practice and it's just me, and so it would be really easy to just be on my own little island like, okay, I should have all the answers and I.
Speaker 2:But I quickly found, found, um, when I acted in that way, I didn't do very good work my work wasn't as quality, um, and so for me, like, having like a good network of people, having you that I can can tell me like, hey, what do you think about this?
Speaker 2:Like, give me, give me, what am I missing here, what am I not seeing? Um has helped me, um, be better at what I do and, like as an athlete I tell having been a former athlete when I work with athletes, I'd say there's a reason why we have coaches, right, because they help us see things that we can't see in ourself when we're performing. And I think the same in professional practice, whether that's you know business or you know whatever aspect having other people who can ask you good questions, right, I, I like to surround myself with the people who ask good questions of me and challenge me in that way to think about um, why am I doing that and what? Well, what is my, my process and my thought through that? So that um that helps bring out my best. So absolutely.
Speaker 2:You're one of you're in my circle.
Speaker 1:Thank you, and as you are in mine, and what you're talking about is that here we are, green and growing so that we're not static on the vine.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:If, if I were to say, like cause, you know, the whole premise of our podcast here is beyond the couch, yeah, it's. It's saying, you know, like we want to always hopefully leave people with something that they can do on their own. The thing that really resonated with me is you saying that this athlete found that place to stand in their nerves. They didn't love it now, but they said I found a place that I could stand in my nerves and be content, maybe, or okay, with it.
Speaker 2:Okay with it. Yeah, Okay with it. I have a colleague who works for the USOC and the way he describes it is he said you know, imagine you show up to this party and you know you're having such a good time and everyone's there, and then that one person that you really didn't want to see shows up. How do you respond in that situation, Like can you still, in that space, like be okay with that person, or do you just like leave the party completely? And so, yeah, when this client said that like I was able to stand in my nerves, that was just like it's still, I got goosebumps.
Speaker 2:If you can, see it, you're telling the whole story, I know it's uncomfortable, you know, and I think that's that's the key that a big one. When we talk to athletes a lot of times you know when they come in they're wanting to get rid of the nerves and the discomfort. And, um, I'm like it's not that we're getting rid of the, you know, the. I feel like I'm quoting a TV show on this, but and it was, it was a sports psychologist on a TV show. She was telling her client it's not that you're getting rid of the the minds, you know, because he said, I feel like I'm walking through a minefield she said it's no, you're not getting rid of the minefield, you're just learning how to navigate it better.
Speaker 2:That's right, yeah, and so I feel like that, and that's. You know, I love to use ted lasso or whatever like I will use all sorts of anything I can to kind of, you know, have a point resonate with it yeah, make it relatable.
Speaker 2:But I liked that analogy of thinking about, um, when we're trying to perform mentally, it doesn't mean that you know, you don't have those feelings. You're human, so it's normal to have fear, it's normal to have doubt, it's normal to be insecure. But how, what do I do so I can actually be in that space and still do what I want to do and perform? You know that that that doesn't control me, right? I control myself in that space.
Speaker 1:Exactly Because that's what we have control over. Getting rid of the minds is is, in essence, trying to control.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. You're like, I want this great little perfect.
Speaker 1:Right, and we can't do that. That's why we talk about managing depression, managing anxiety. We don't make it go away. I remember in college, one of my college roommates was this he was a bodybuilder and he was into martial arts and I remember I think we would train together and I would say, okay, I really want you to help me get rid of my flinch, like I don't want to flinch if somebody, like you know, tries to punch at my head and he's like dude, you're an idiot. And he was right. That was an idiotic thing.
Speaker 2:That's a normal response, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he was like I don't want to take that away, you don't want to take that away. You don't want to take that away. And I thought to myself in that moment. I was like you know what this is actually. A greater principle is that that's a God-given gift to me to flinch or to move because it's going to keep me safe. Anxiety is a God-given gift to us to tell us something isn't right. So, knowing that we have that, but we don't have to then crater as a result, like your friend was saying, how do I handle if a person that I don't like or is really troublesome for me shows?
Speaker 3:up in an environment.
Speaker 1:How do I handle me? We tend to say let's make the environment more suitable to you. Yeah, when in reality, what I hope for is that we say how do I make myself more what's my word Able? Well, I can't think of the word. But how do I make myself more able to handle the environment?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I had a coach who, um I it was a video that we were watching from um that's when I was doing one of the coaching workshops and he said um, you know, athletes are environmental. A lot of athletes are environmental If the environment's right, not right. Um they, they don't know how to perform. It's like well, regardless of the environment. I want you know they got to learn how to perform right in spite of that challenge and tough environment.
Speaker 2:And so I think that's that's kind of the, I guess, the trajectory of what, what, the work that we're both trying to do.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Athletes are doing it on the playing field and the the people that are darkening our doors here are are doing it on life's playing field. Yeah, but the athletes are doing it on life's playing field as well.
Speaker 2:They are as well for sure, and so it's it's.
Speaker 1:it permeates all sides of it Absolutely. But you're right. You look at, like I'm going to pick out a guy like Patrick Mahomes. I mean, that guy is like Gumby in any environment.
Speaker 2:So flexible and adaptable?
Speaker 1:Yes, and the key to mental health is flexibility. Absolutely the key to pathology is rigidity, and that's true on both sides, either physical or the metaphysical.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, we think about resilience, right, is you know how much the ability to withstand that pressure and in that environment? And so there's a lot of factors that allow people to be resilient and to bend Right, Right, my my sensei would always say you know, in life, you know you need to be like, um, the those trees that, oh gosh, yeah, a willow tree, it's like in life you got to be like a willow tree. Yeah, it's like in life you got to be like a willow tree. He's like you know, grounded, you know deep roots, but flexible that you don't break when the when the wind blows on you. And I love that, yeah, and so such a great visual.
Speaker 2:It is such a great visual, yeah, because it's like they're strengthened the roots, but also now, like the storms, right they come and that's part of life. I I often will say to clients like how boring if life was like easy, right. I mean if, if, if you knew everything was just going to go perfect, you know you wouldn't appreciate. You know the good moments as well, and so it's, it's part of being able to, yeah, be, enjoy the climb.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I think we were built for that, yeah, and we were built to seek out the, not seek out those challenges, but we were built for those challenges to um, for for us to enjoy.
Speaker 2:Agreed, you know, yeah, well, we find great satisfaction, right, there's, there's nothing greater than going after something pouring your heart and soul. And I had um, I think it was my my mentor said because that's living, right, that's really living when you can invest your whole self, you know, into something and go in. And you know you're it's to quote Roosevelt right that your face is marred with dust and blood. You know, and at the end you know, you, you may have been defeated, but you tried. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that quote, that is one of my favorites, that's one I often use. In fact, I was doing an interview yesterday yesterday she's surprising them with runner's world and, um, they were talking about asking me about um, injury and kind of like promoting when we give so much attention to people who are have been injured, um, and compete while they're injured versus those who, you know, kind of pull themselves off. And I was like man, it's, it's a lot psychologically, a lot tougher for an athlete to pull themselves out. Yes, right Of a performance, right Of a performance, right, um, I was doing this interview with um runner's world about injured athletes and, um, she was asking me, why is it that we give so much?
Speaker 2:You know, we, we glorify someone competing, you know, with a broken leg, you know, through a marathon. And I and I said, well, I guess I'm interested in who is it that's glorifying it? Is it, you know, is it are the people that are actually in the arena or is it the, or is it the fans in the stands? Like, who is it that's doing that? You know, is it the coaches that are glorifying that? Right, um, because critics.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or is it the critics that are?
Speaker 2:saying oh, this or that, because you know, we saw that with um, you know, simone Biles, when she had the twisties and had to pull herself out. There were a lot of critics at first, whereas I saw that and I was like wow, that took so much courage, so much to to do what she did. To do what she did, I mean, like I can't the level of respect that I had for for that um and doing that on that level was yeah, it's incredible, yeah, and the the level of consideration, the level of self care, like self compassion.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like to me that's. That's a term that I don't think we truly appreciate is that do we have self-compassion?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, Cause for a lot of, you know, when you think about high performers, I think there's this inception of you know robots and they just go in and and they're humans, Right. And so a big part of, even I think a big section of my work is teaching people self-care. You know good self-care. We talk about balance. Teaching people self-care you know good self-care. We talk about balance a lot and I say you know, balance is an active process, Right. So if you go too far in one direction, right, if you get tipped too far in one direction, then you have to make, you know, a move to regain balance in the other direction. So, and that's true with work, Right, If you see this with the accounting guys, right, and that's true with work, right, If you see this with the accounting guys, right, During tax time, they are like hey, don't talk to me.
Speaker 3:No, I can't go to this party.
Speaker 2:No, I'm not taking my kids on spring break anywhere. I mean they are in until tax season's over and then they have a big blowout, you know, thing after. To me that's great self-care and you know when I look at, you know some of my athletes, and especially now that more sports have become professionalized and it's a business, so you see these seasons getting extended longer and longer and so actively getting them to. What are you doing to step away from this, to recover?
Speaker 1:Because you know a huge percentage of elite performance is recovery right Mental, emotional, physical recovery, and so a lot of times athletes will look at like maybe just the physical, but then they may not be doing the things, or performers, people in general, and I'm sure that's you see that as well right All the time and I think about when I was running marathons one of the things that my coach taught me early on, but maybe more in the middle of my training, was how to recover when running downhill, and I just remember when he started talking to me about that, I was like again, this is, this extends to the metaphysical is that we don't always get to stop climbing to an ice bath, you know, sit there for a few minutes, go to the sauna.
Speaker 1:We don't always get those times of recovery, but can we find active recovery in the process of, even even in the process of our, our sport? I remember that was such a pivotal moment for me that next marathon I took I think I took like 45 minutes off of my uh, original time, which I thought was pretty, pretty incredible.
Speaker 1:Um but uh, it was. It was cool to this as an aside. I was running down a Hill in that marathon that we had really been talking about. I was thinking it and this man comes up behind me out of nowhere.
Speaker 2:He was an older guy and he was running down a hill in that marathon that we had really been talking about and you're thinking that.
Speaker 1:I was thinking it and this man comes up behind me out of nowhere. He's an older guy and he was running and he was like hey, let your brakes off. And it was like a. It was almost like the same thing that my coach and I had been talking about. Yeah, so you kept saying don't put on your brakes just let yourself go. And this older guy kept come through and he's like, hey, let your brakes off, like just flow down the hill. And it was almost like he was like a little angel that dropped down for me, but it was really neat.
Speaker 1:He gave you perspective.
Speaker 2:Exactly Someone outside that's saying like hey.
Speaker 1:Which is why we have to have community, which is why we need a team. Which is like why we were talking about. Neither of us like to operate solo or individually.
Speaker 2:No, I mean, we are a piece of the puzzle. We are not the only piece of the puzzle, that's right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I hope our listeners, I hope that they can take a perspective from you that it's truly about being comfortable in the environment, or you finding your own sense of comfort in you not trying to change the environment, which I think is brilliant. It's the idea that we, we have to have that sense of self-compassion. Are we willing to throw ourselves out and give it a shot? It's that idea of of balance and recovery, and I'm sure I'm missing other amazing gems but Gold nuggets that are hidden in there.
Speaker 2:We'll both look back and be like, oh, and this one, no, this.
Speaker 1:This was also good.
Speaker 2:I always learn so much from this. It's good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you so much for taking the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I appreciate it. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:This has been a lot of fun for me, so thanks Ditto.
Speaker 3:If you found value in our discussion and wish to uncover more about the fascinating world of mental wellness, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Stay tuned for our upcoming episodes, where Dr Long will continue to delve into empowering therapies and strategies for mental wellness. Your journey to understanding and embracing mental health is just beginning and we're excited to have you with us every step of the way. Until next time, keep exploring, keep growing and remember to celebrate restored freedom as you uncover it. Thank you.
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