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Restoration Beyond the Couch
The Beyond the Couch with Dr. Lee Long podcast is intended solely for general informational purposes and does not represent the practice of medicine, therapeutic and psychiatric services, nursing, or other professional health care services. It also does not constitute the provision of medical, therapeutic or psychiatric advice, and no doctor/patient relationship is established. The information on this podcast and any materials linked from it are used at the user's own risk. The content provided through this podcast should not be considered a replacement for professional medical, therapeutic, or psychiatric advice, diagnosis, or treatment. It is important that users do not ignore or postpone seeking medical, therapeutic, or psychiatric advice for any health or mental health condition they might have, and should always consult with their health care professionals regarding such conditions.
Restoration Beyond the Couch
Balancing Minds and Hormones: Insights from Lisa Marie
In this episode, Dr. Lee Long sits down with Lisa Marie Shaughnessy to talk about her journey from radio to mental health. She discusses technology in advanced psychiatric evaluations, hormone therapy, medical interventions, and finding the right balance. Her new book called "Testosterone The Next Drug Epidemic" is available from where ever books are sold.
Welcome to Restoration Beyond the Couch. I'm Dr Lee Long and in this episode I sit down with Lisa Marie Shaughnessy to explore her inspiring road from a career in radio to the world of mental health. We discuss her book called Testosterone the Next Drug Epidemic, and we delve into topics which include the role of technology in advanced psychiatric evaluations, the impacts hormone therapy had on her life and others like her, and various medical interventions and the importance of finding the balance in your treatment. This enlightening conversation offers valuable insights and actionable takeaways for anyone seeking to enhance their mental wellness. Your path to mental wellness starts here. Welcome. Thank you, lisa Marie. Thank you for being here today. Yeah, I am excited to dive in to this topic. I'm excited to talk in to this topic. I'm excited to talk to you about your book, testosterone the Next Drug Epidemic. I'm excited to just hear from you. I'm trying to think of how long you and I have known one another and it feels like a long time, about eight years ago.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So it was when I was at Sante Center for Healing. That's when we first met.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, all right, that's right, and you used to be in radio. I did for 25 years.
Speaker 1:And so what did tell us what you did in radio?
Speaker 2:Okay, so I want to back up. I'm going to share with you why I got into radio and how grateful I am to be here on your couch today.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Okay, because when I was 17 years old, my dad called a family meeting.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And in this family meeting he said I bought this company and it was a company that the Disney's owned. So my dad was in broadcasting as well.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So it was a company that the Disney's owned, which is what led us to Dallas from LA. So, anyway, I stood up in that family meeting and I said I am not going to work for you, I am not going to work in radio, I am not going to do this, I want to be a social worker. And he looks at me and he says doll, doll, doll, you can't be a social worker. He goes, you need to go into radio because you can make money. Okay, so fast forward two years after I graduated from high. Well, I graduated from high school. And then, a year after I graduated from high school, I reached out to the general manager of KEGL, a Dallas radio station. Norman Rao was his name, and I called Norman and I said Norman, I want to be your receptionist. And he goes, lisa, he goes, I have a receptionist. I said no, norman, you don't understand. I will be the best receptionist you've ever hired. Like that's how naive I was, you know so, but I knew I was a good receptionist.
Speaker 1:How did you know this?
Speaker 2:Because during high school I worked at a hair salon as the receptionist and everybody loved me, so I knew I would be a good receptionist, right.
Speaker 2:So anyway, he goes, well, come on in. And, um, he goes, we'll talk, but I have, I already have someone in that role. I'm like okay, so I go in and I meet with Norman, and this was in the Xerox center in Las Colinas, that's where the radio station was, and I lived in Las Colinas. Okay, so that's where I went to high school and all of that. So anyway, I go in and we're meeting and uh, he says, well, my receptionist resigned today.
Speaker 1:What.
Speaker 2:Uh-huh.
Speaker 1:Now, you didn't write that resignation letter for you, did you?
Speaker 2:I'm kidding, I know. And I said they did. And he goes, yes, and I said, well, I'm going to be the best receptionist that you've ever hired. And so that's how I got into radio. I became the receptionist at KEGL. Within six months I was promoted to programming and promotions assistant, all because the program director walked into Norman's office and said she is running this radio station up at the front desk. I want her back with me. I had to go into sales, and so I moved from Dallas to Lincoln, nebraska, to take my first sales job, and the reason why I did that was because my dad told me that I had to start in sales in a small market.
Speaker 1:Oh.
Speaker 2:Okay so.
Speaker 1:Dallas was too big of a market for you to start in sales, in his opinion.
Speaker 2:In his opinion Okay, okay, so I moved to Lincoln, nebraska, but I turned down the job the first time and I didn't go until the second time and the and my dad just happened to own the radio station that I turned the job down on.
Speaker 2:OK so and I turned it down and I never told him why I turned the job down, because I went and I interviewed and I came back and I was like, yeah, I'm not going up there until several months later and I was still working for the Eagle and he said so, doll, why'd you turn down the job? Because I wasn't going to tell my dad why I turned down the job, because he had the wrong man in the position up there.
Speaker 1:You didn't want to work for the gentleman that was in.
Speaker 2:No, there was no way. I was going to work for him. Okay, and how do you tell your father that?
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:You know, yeah. And especially, you're all of 21 years old. So who are you Right? And here's this guy up there. But there was no way I was going to go to work for that man. And so I finally said something and I said dad, I said I'm not going to work for that guy, he goes so you?
Speaker 1:So you found a way to tell him. Yeah, I love that, because he asked me Okay.
Speaker 2:Okay, so I wasn't going to volunteer. It wasn't. I didn't feel that it was my place.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Who am I to tell him how to run his radio station?
Speaker 1:right, okay, fair enough.
Speaker 2:And so I told him and he's like duh, why didn't you tell me he goes, I'm firing him and he goes and I'm putting Dan Charleston in to be the general manager. So I went up and re-interviewed and so when I re-interviewed, that's when I moved up there because I could go to work for Dan, I could trust Dan, I could respect Dan, I was the owner's daughter, so I had a lot going against me. Anyway, yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Okay, it does it it makes had a lot going against me anyway. Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, it makes life a lot harder when you're in that position. Sure, and I was a remote owner's daughter, so my dad wasn't involved in the day-to-day.
Speaker 1:He wasn't a known entity, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so he wasn't in the day-to-day, sure. So I went to work there and you know, I got my feet wet in sales, so went in sales. So I worked there for two years, actually three years, and then I resigned and went to work for the country station and that's when my life completely dramatically changed. And it changed because I came out of the shadow of my father. Okay, I had earned a name for myself by going to this other station and so by going to the country station, that's where my career blossomed and through that then I got a job offer to move to Phoenix, arizona, and go to work for Buck Owens, who was the premier radio operator in the country and a country star. And I worked there for nine years and you know, that's where I really kind of became. Lisa Marie Shaughnessy was in Phoenix. Because that I came out of the shadow the shadow because it can be tough to do that, sure, you know.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then I spent 25 years in the industry and I loved it, but I always had a burning desire to be in behavioral health ever since I was 17 years old.
Speaker 1:What drove that burning desire? Do you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So when our family moved from LA to Dallas, that was a really hard time for me. Okay, I was a freshman in high school, and so I was a freshman in high school, starting in Dallas, texas, from California. That already was something. Talk about a culture shock, 100% culture shock. And my parents' marriage was falling apart, okay, at the same time. So they separated six months after we moved here, our lives became chaotic and for me, I was always I was the one that would go and say we have a dysfunctional family and everyone would say, oh, everyone has a dysfunctional family. So I always had a passion for it, I had a desire for it.
Speaker 1:So you kind of felt like, in that sense you were the canary in the coal mine, like you were saying something's off here, correct, okay.
Speaker 2:Yes, but of course my voice was pushed down, pushed down. So I had to find my way, and I found my way the hard way, the good way, the best way, the right way, whatever that way is, I have had to find my way, gotcha, and so that's why I've always had a passion for it.
Speaker 1:And plus.
Speaker 2:I'm an avid reader. I am, as my former husband calls me, a professional workshop participant.
Speaker 2:Because I love to go to everything and I love to delve deep into that, not only to understand in general, but also to help me grow as a human being. Understand in general, but also to help me grow as a human being, and I believe it's my belief that I think, um, at some point in all of our lives and I'm going to use that all of our lives we need to see a therapist. At some point in our lives, whether we're in crisis or whether we want to get to the next level in our career.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I always look at it too is the idea of self-actualization. It's like we were not created nor designed to live in isolation and there's something to us having a sense of community.
Speaker 1:but I don't want to say educated community, but maybe skilled community in a certain area you know, like, if you want to, if your desire is to be an athlete, you know you're not going to go hang around the garden club to become a better athlete. You'll become a better gardener and there's all things great with the garden club. But if you're looking to be a better athlete, being in the garden club is not going to help you in your athletics Right. And so that self-actualization is a sense of finding that psychologically minded community that helps you press into new heights of your psychology 100%, absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 2:And as my mother says, it is will and desire. When you have will and desire, that meet, and for me, my will and desire is incongruent, it's congruent with both, and so that's where I'm living the life that I feel that God wants me to live. I love that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. What a blessing to you and to the people that you're around, because when we're living the life that we were intended for, then it tends to be a blessing everywhere. I always say to people you know, as a parent, when I sit down with my kids or my family to have dinner, I don't pick and choose who gets dinner that night. It's like dinner is for all. Everybody gets to eat. Why? Because I love my family. Well, if we believe that we are loved in that same way by God or whatever your faith tradition is, then it spans to all.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:And so that's really neat. So you went from radio and now where are you now? Tell our listeners where you are now.
Speaker 2:Which I think is so cool. I know, okay, I have my dream job. Yeah, you do I have my dream job I love? Okay, I have my dream job. Yeah, you do, I have my dream job. I love my job. It is everything that God has prepared me for, and I work for Amen Clinics and at Amen Clinics we have 11 clinics across the country. I represent the Dallas Fort Worth Clinic and Dr Daniel Amen is our founder, who has written 45 books.
Speaker 1:I did not realize it was that many.
Speaker 2:Yes, 45 books. 12 of them are New York Times bestsellers, that's fantastic. So, and I feel very honored and privileged to be able to work for Amen Clinics, and what we do is we take the psychiatric evaluation to the next level.
Speaker 1:That's a good way to say it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So it's the next level, because when you as therapist or let's just say the general public are working with families or individuals and they're stuck, you know they're not moving forward. Something intuitively you know is going on in their brain that maybe needs to be looked at so that they can move forward in their life. That's where we come in with SPECT imaging, and SPECT is single photon emission computed tomography, and what that is is nuclear medicine. So we're going in and we're looking at the blood flow in the brain. We're going to be able to see where the blood flow is getting, or where the brain is getting adequate blood flow, where it's not getting enough blood flow and where it's getting too much blood flow. So we can actually see dementia 20 years in advance. A lot of times that scares people, but a lot of times people want to know.
Speaker 1:I think it's invigorating, because if it were a death sentence, so to speak, if you couldn't alter it, if it was just a fact and it was an oncoming train and there was no changing the trajectory of that train, I would say I don't want to know. But the fact of the matter is, and we know, many things can be done to change the trajectory of that outcome.
Speaker 2:Many things, yeah, I mean okay. So for dementia and Alzheimer's, for example, which we see, we see that quite a bit. One of the things that people can do if they have dementia and Alzheimer's is go to hyperbaric oxygen therapy. That will change their brain by 10%, which is going to help their brain operate better while they are in this state, and that's just one little thing. They're changing their diet. That can be a game changer for people.
Speaker 1:You know, one of the things that has really struck me is the fact that because full disclosure my mom unfortunately had Alzheimer's and has since passed a number of years ago, and so I have been on a quest to understand it, to make sure that it doesn't get passed down. She had a million wonderful traits and those I want to be passed down, but this one I don't. And one of the things that I've seen is sleep. Is that you, like you're saying like we can look at a brain with a spec image and no, 20 years in advance, we can also look at someone's sleep hygiene and see that 20 years in advance, like their sleep is a problem, and cleaning up the sleep hygiene can be a really positive outcome. And so it's these really simple things that we can lean into, that we can potentially change the trajectory of where things are going in our life.
Speaker 1:And I think that knowledge can be power if knowledge is applied appropriately and it's not fearful and it's not shaming, but we look at it and say, ok, what's next? And it's not shaming, but we look at it and say, okay, what's next. So Amen Clinic has been such an amazing thing for you. It's been such an amazing thing for many people. I mean, I'm trying to think of, you would know this way better than me, but I know that he's done more than how many scans has he? How many scans has the Amen Clinic done?
Speaker 2:So we have a database of over 250,000 scans. We are the largest SPECT imaging database in the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, nobody comes close to us. And here's a fascinating thing. So Dr Amen learned about SPECT imaging from a conference APA conference. He was there. He went to this session. They were talking about SPECT imaging and that's when he became interested in it. He has been criticized also for what he does, okay, and so he's had a lot of critics. But he learned it at the APA and so what he's done is he's taken that, he took the ball and he ran with it Right.
Speaker 2:You know, and that's what pioneers do, that's right, you know, they take the ball and they run with it and he, he has done amazing work and he has changed people's lives every single day. And I should say he, we, and I say we okay, because, yes, he pioneered Amen Clinics, but we have 60 board certified psychiatrists on staff with us across the country. We also have, I would say, probably eight to 10 functional medicine doctors across the country. We have nurse practitioners across the country. We have a few therapists not a lot of therapists, but we have a few therapists because what we like to do is we like to partner with therapists like you guys. Okay, because we know our patients.
Speaker 2:We're a destination, right, people are coming to us for three days and then they're. They may be leaving, some may stay and they may work with the doctors remotely. But if somebody needs to do EMDR, for example, and they live in Fort Worth, well, they're going to come here. Or, let's say, we recommend neurofeedback as part of the process in helping heal the brain, well, they're going to come see Jeff, you know. So they're going to come here for neurofeedback. That's why it's really important for us to be able to partner with providers all over the country, all over the world, for that matter, because we have, there's a Brazilian family that comes to us. Every year. They come, they get scans. They basically shut down the Atlanta clinic because that's how busy we are with this family. So, um, and we have families that come from London, spain, um, I have one that I've just emailed this morning that I'm working with in South Africa. So it's from all over the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, it's, it's a game changer, right, and it's it's finding what. I think that what we're moving to in medicine we've gone from where a person was a generalist to be a person being a very, very, very, very specialized, where we forgot the rest of the body, to where we're now moving back out to. But, but the moving back out has become much more specified for individuals, because, you know, you'll hear, you know, gosh, salt is doesn't work for me, or I don't get enough salt. Or caffeine we shouldn't have it. And I know that caffeine does limit the blood flow to the brain, but there are some people who metabolize caffeine very quickly, so the consequences of caffeine has a much lesser effect on them, while somebody does not metabolize caffeine quickly, then they're going to have further, like bigger consequences, and so it's. It's just knowing what, what our genetics are, what our bodies do and how we individually respond.
Speaker 1:And I love the SPECT imaging because it really does give us a well. First of all, it gives us a picture, because I, I, I had a patient that I was treating. This has been many, many years ago and they had a very significant issue and there was nothing in the world that could convince them that what was being seen by their family, by their friends, by me, by other treaters. They couldn't convince them that it was there until they got the SPECT image and they saw it loud and clear, and that was the first time that they could acknowledge that, yes, this is an issue. The behaviors have proven it. Your family has seen it, all of the people in your life has seen it, your community sees it, and now they saw it in, I would say, in black and white, but the spec images are, they're in full color.
Speaker 1:They saw it in full color and it was a. It was a very, very powerful experience for them.
Speaker 2:That's amazing, yeah, so before I went to work for Amen Clinics when I was writing my book, yeah, I want to get into this.
Speaker 2:Well, okay, but in my book. So I was scanned at Amen Clinics before I ever went to work for Amen Clinics and I decided at the last minute. This wasn't something that was intentional, that was going to be a part of my book, but I decided at the last minute before I was publishing it. I'm like I got to put my scans in here, so I have my scans in the book and so you can see my original scans. Since then I've been scanned two more times, but with the original scans you can see my thalamus lit up and with thalamus that could be normal or that could be depression. Okay, and so for me, that made sense, because you know, I definitely have experienced depression off and on over the years, and when I became post-menopausal, that's when the depression really took on a whole new life. Yeah, so, and you were mentioning earlier about caffeine and how it can impact people differently.
Speaker 2:Well, for me, after I became, I had surgical menopause. So after surgical menopause, I could no longer eat gluten. I could eat gluten up until then, but after that I could no longer eat it and I thought to myself what is wrong with me? Because I loved my pita jungle. Pita jungle in Phoenix is one of the best places that we love to go to. I can no longer eat my pita jungle because I couldn't eat the gluten. Interesting yeah.
Speaker 1:And that's that gut-brain connection too. Absolutely it is. Yeah, absolutely it is. So tell us what it was that you wrote the book Testosterone the Next Drug Epidemic. What inspired this?
Speaker 2:So I had my own experience with it and I was still living in Phoenix. I went to a quote unquote hormone clinic or, as I call this place, a pellet palace. Okay, so I went to the pellet palace. And when I went to the pellet palace and when I went to the Pallet Palace, I was 43 years old and they said, lisa, your testosterone is 28. We consider that to be on the low end. You're a candidate for testosterone replacement therapy. Well, at the time I was probably in the best shape of my life. I was doing half marathons, I was doing sprint shape of my life. I was doing half marathons. I was doing sprint triathlons, I was doing Olympic triathlons. I had just moved through my divorce, so I had gotten through all of that and I was living a great life. And so, for me, I thought, okay, I'm going to do it. And so the first time I did the first pellet insertion I was okay. The second pellet insertion I was okay. The second pellet insertion I was okay. It was the third one that I was not.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And that's when problems started to arise. And they say pellets to be on pellets, it's going to be three to six months. Typically, what they were saying in the very beginning was six months. Then all of a sudden it shortened to three months. But the problem with pellets is that you cannot control right the dosing. You can't control how your body's going to metabolize them. And so for me, what happened is I started transitioning. They got my level so high that, uh, my total testosterone level that we know of that was tested, that we saw in black and white was 467. For a healthy female you should not be over 70. That's total testosterone. Now my free testosterone was 35.7. Now my free testosterone was 35.7. In Dr Amen's book the Brain Warrior's Way, he talks about optimal free testosterone for men. That's 24. I was 35.7.
Speaker 1:I was going crazy. So were you experiencing like not psychiatric but like anxiety, and what were the symptoms?
Speaker 2:Tons of anxiety, tons of rage, intensity. I was incredibly intense and I felt like I was falling apart and to the point where one of the doctors she, one of my doctors, not the one who prescribed pellets, yeah, Not the pellet palace Um, this was an OBGYN who I went to see her and she looks at me and she goes are you okay? And of course I knew I wasn't just from presentation.
Speaker 2:Um, she saw my test results that she had done Not that the and I looked at her and I said why are you asking me? Because it was the way she asked me. And she said I'm concerned. And I said about what? And she said that's when she told me your testosterone is 467 and you're free, she goes my biggest concern is your free testosterone because it's 35.7. That is the free testosterone, is it's 35.7. That is the free testosterone is what creates the sexual characteristics. Okay, so that's what can take a woman to a man. So here I was transitioning, not because I wanted to, not intentionally, yeah, yeah but because I was being overdosed.
Speaker 1:So the interesting thing to me about this is, first of all, is the whole design of pellets, and when you're testing something to see how the body reacts to it, the whole pellet design is a real commitment to this, is the accurate dosing, and this is all of that. And look, if people have found a dosing that works for them, it's like you, it's like you started out. This is not a you know, a what am I trying to say? A lynching session on pellets or on, you know, testosterone, estrogen, any hormone replacement, because if it's needed, then it can be very helpful, like you were saying, like opiates, if they're needed in the appropriate space. It's helpful If you're coming off of a surgery, like shoulder surgery, if you need the, the opiates to help you sort out pain.
Speaker 1:But the idea is I remember I had shoulder surgery about a year ago and I just remember on the fifth day after surgery, I just decided I was finished with the opiates and I'm like I don't care how bad it hurts, I'm done. And the fascinating thing was is when I stopped, I was able to find the mentalization of where the pain was. I was able to deal with it through my own mindfulness practice. And to your point, though, that it's needed when it's needed, and we have to be aware when it's overdone, because when it's overdone it can be just damaging.
Speaker 2:It can cause death. And in fact, there's one story in my book and it was a woman that found me online and probably back in 2014. And she said my husband, who was in his 60s, was on testosterone and I told him he was acting like a 20-year-old and that he needed to go get it tested. And he wouldn't go get it tested and he went out to the backyard and oh, my God.
Speaker 2:And she said I had two autopsies done, one where his estrogen to testosterone ratio was 75 to 1. And then the second one was 45 to 1. Doping is 8 to 1. And so what a lot of people don't understand is that when you go down this hormonal path, you are changing your entire endocrine system. Okay, and so when you have too much testosterone in your body, it can convert to estrogen. And so for men, if it converts to estrogen, that's a whole nother ballgame. For women, if it converts to estrogen, which had happened to me to the point where the physicians my estrogen level after surgical menopause, my estrogen level after surgical menopause, no ovaries, my estrogen level was 500. That's not normal, okay, a healthy woman is 100 and that's if she's on estrogen replacement. Mine was 500.
Speaker 2:To the point where the doctors they thought I had a pituitary tumor because of what was happening with my estrogen and my testosterone levels. It was that bad. And so my doctor looked at me and she goes you have to go see an endocrinologist. And I looked at her and I was just like I can't, I can't go to another doctor, like what I can't. And she goes no, you have to. And so I did. And thank God I did and I took three years of all my testosterone induced life medical records with me to the syndromologist. And he looks at me and he goes why did they put you on testosterone? He goes you should have never been put on testosterone. Why did they put you on this? Why did they put you on that? Why did I mean? And he just kept going on and on. He goes we're going to get you all situated and we did, okay, but it took two and a half years for my body to go back to homeostasis, right. So that was my last pellet insertion was September of 2012.
Speaker 2:By February of 2015, my body became where it should be Okay, but where it should be was really postmenopausal. So that's when a host of other symptoms came into play. But I was. I had so much trauma around what I had experienced I wouldn't. I wouldn't go down the path of entertaining anything to put into my body until 2018. But I will tell you, becoming postmenopausal boom, that first week, I gained five pounds without doing anything. The second week and I remember telling my old sales manager. I looked at her and I said I'm observing myself right now and she goes what? And I said I'm observing what's going on with my body right now, and it is completely changing. I just gained five pounds for no reason and I gained 40 pounds within six months, but again, I was still afraid.
Speaker 2:So it wasn't until I moved back to Dallas and then, in 2018, a doctor said I can't let you leave my office without going on diabetes medication, because that's one of the issues with women when it comes to menopause is blood sugar. My blood sugar was so out of control, not even doing anything differently, yeah. And so I said, okay, I'm okay with that. And so I went on metformin, and so I gradually I mean, this is, of course, 2018 to where I am today, in 2024. This has been gradual. So people think, just because I wrote the book Testosterone the Next Drug Epidemic, that I'm anti-everything, and I'm not. All I'm doing is sharing the facts.
Speaker 1:Water is a great thing. We cannot live without it, but you can. You can overdo water and it'll kill you? Yes, you can. You know sugar. Sure, it's an enjoyable thing, but you can overdo sugar and you can send yourself into a diabetic coma. You know, exercise is a good thing, but you can overdo your exercise and come up with a stress fracture and it's like it's finding the balance of what is good and what is good for you.
Speaker 2:And today I feel like I have the best balance that I've ever had, ever have.
Speaker 2:I love that In my career, in my health, in my brain health, just in everything that I'm doing in my life and one of my friends last week in Phoenix because she goes, you look amazing I popped into Phoenix for 24 hours and she didn't realize that I'm now on estrogen and I'm on progesterone, but I'm not on testosterone and I don't need to be on testosterone, I don't need to go there, you know and so, but I'm okay with being on estrogen and I'm okay with being on progesterone, and what progesterone has done to my sleep is amazing. I sleep like a baby. I take it at night before I go to sleep and I sleep like a baby. And that's one of the biggest challenges that women have in menopause is they lose their sleep, and you were talking earlier about how important sleep is. That's right, and sleep can impact your mood.
Speaker 1:You know, the thing that I don't think people realize about sleep is is that sleep is a natural, the process of sleep, and deep sleep is the process it allows your brain to clean itself. That's when the brain showers. You know, we have a lymphatic system from the neck down, but we have what has been called the glymphatic system in our brain. Is that when we get into deep sleep, our glial cells shrink, our cerebral spinal fluid comes around our brain. Is that when we get into deep sleep, our glial cells shrink, our cerebral spinal fluid comes around our brain and washes off that beta amyloid plaque, the tau proteins, all those things that we don't want in there. It cleans off all the odors, we'll call it, and it's restorative.
Speaker 1:Right, it's, it's. We were designed to be a self-cleaning machine, so to speak, and sleep allows for that. It does, it does. And if you are not getting that, it's like, what do we need to do to bring that on board? And so that's really, that's really neat that you walk through that and I would imagine you're now with a physician who is really monitoring levels, not allowing those levels to get out of control.
Speaker 2:Yes, in fact she and her husband. He's a psychiatrist, she's an endocrinologist, and they wrote on the back of my book and they have a practice in Grapevine in Fort Worth. But I met Dr Khawaja, who's a psychiatrist, when he opened up MD True Care and I was working at Sante, and so he would do a lot of events for me and CEUs. Well, he is a sleep guru and so he also does sleep medicine in his psychiatry practice. Anyway, so after I got to know him, I went to his wife because she was an endocrinologist and so then, as I was finishing up my book, they read my book before it ever came out and they wrote on the back of my book.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I love that Such a sweet endorsement.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and they're an amazing, not only amazing human beings, but they're incredible physicians. So, yeah, and I would trust them, you know, like I trust our Amen Clinic doctors and like I trust you guys here, you know, so yeah, Well, that's fantastic.
Speaker 1:I think that I had a person, just in particular that I'm thinking of, that I worked with, who went to a pellet palace and unfortunately, this person got to the point where their testosterone was so out of control and they were in their late 60s, early 70s and, for the first time in their life, became suicidal, and that's how they ended up in in my office and it was such a you know, it was like riding a bull, because everything was always up and down and there was so much that was not stable.
Speaker 1:And I'm not saying they weren't stable, but so much inside of them that was influenced, that was, I call it, detoxed from all of that endocrine disruption. They came back to homeostasis and now it's been. I don't want to go back there. I don't want to go back there. And it's like they have found that place of homeostasis and it's like you said, it's traumatic, it is Andasis and it's like. It's like you said, it's traumatic, it is, and it's that it's the place. Again, it's not saying that these things are bad. So if, if, if you're listening and you're, you're on pellets and they're working for you, that's fantastic. It's when it's it's. It's like drinking too much water it disrupts your whole system. It's like drinking too much alcohol it disrupts your whole system. It's like drinking too much alcohol. It disrupts your whole life. It's like taking too much, too many opioids. When you don't, we are not in pain.
Speaker 1:It will disrupt your life. It's like you said with the benzos like if you're on a benzodiazepine because you have anxiety, then take it as prescribed, if you're on a Adderall and it is more than what your body needs. That's what we're talking about. It's like finding your balance.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and Dr Amen just did a show with Dr Phil and they talked about the Adderall epidemic. Boy, is it? Because there is an Adderall epidemic and for the wrong brain, adderall can cause huge problems For the right brain and the right brain being somebody that actually does have ADD, and the right type of ADD? Okay, because Dr Amen talks about seven types of ADD and the seven types of ADD, one of them, adderall, is going to backfire on and that's the ring of fire, and with the ring of fire, that's a brain that's lit up. You want to calm that brain down, so you don't want to stimulate that brain, and that's where it can create psychosis, it can create a host of other issues. So you never know, and that's where you know.
Speaker 2:I think having a brain scanned, that can give you a lot of benefits when it comes to actual medications as well. And so taking a brain scan and genetic testing, which is what we do to find out which psychotropic medications are going to work better for you, um, is to me one of the best ways that you can go about that. Like I had gene site testing to find out what antidepressant would be best for me and, what's fascinating, all of the ones that you think about. Zoloft, prozac, welbutrin are all in the red for me. Those are all the ones that prescribed on a regular Lexapro Right, the only one that my body metabolized well is Persique Interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Now I'm no longer on an antidepressant but because of that test, when I did go on that antidepressant, I went on that versus the others.
Speaker 1:Right. And that's what's so interesting, because for some people those are great medications, but for yourself it's like I would say it's like a placebo, but placebo has an effect. It's like you're taking a non-effective pill so you're wasting money, wasting time in it, feeling like gosh, why am I not having an outcome?
Speaker 2:Yeah, as you know, this year was kind of a rough year for our family, with the loss of my brother, and I made a decision to eliminate Prostique this year. Now making that decision, I was already tapering off before Mike died and then when Mike died, I called Dr Kwaj and I said, can you up it? And so we went back up. But then I started tapering off Um, and then I went off of it, Um, and I had all of those withdrawal symptoms you know I had my lips were numb, I had the brain zaps, you know I I got a little moody, all of the things that you experience.
Speaker 2:But then there was one doctor that wanted to put me on Lexapro and not Dr Kowatch, and I said, okay, I'll try it, I'll just try it. And it made me catatonic, and I knew that. So I only did it for three days because I knew it was going to make me catatonic, because I knew what the gene site testing showed and Lexapro is in the red for me. And so I finally said, listen, I can't take this. I said I can't do my job. You know I can't it.
Speaker 1:It completely made me just go like this and I said, yeah, I can't do this, yeah yeah, you know there are some people who get that anhedonia of the antidepressants and it's like you lose everything. You lose the depression, you lose joy, you lose everything and it's almost like you're in a, like you're in a hyperbaric chamber without the benefits and it's not. It just doesn't work well. The theme that I'm hearing here is that when something or someone from the outside says to you I can make your life better. The thing that I want to encourage all of us to consider is do we feel like that something better is necessary Because the enemy of good is better, and do we genuinely, genuinely need something to make us better? And if we're going for better, what's the goal and do we have our sights set on something that is something that we genuinely want?
Speaker 1:Because you described the beginning of your, of your road with this experience as I was living a great life. I had come through some really painful things. I was athletically in my prime, everything was in a good space, but I was told I could have something better, and do we consider what that better truly is, or do we hear better? This isn't a criticism of you, it's I do this when I hear I can have something better, it's like I want better. But do we define what better is, and is the outcome what we thought it was going to be?
Speaker 2:I love what you just said, yeah, and those words are going to stick with me because I'm considering some things right now that I'm really um torn about some things right now that I'm really torn about, and one of them is peptides.
Speaker 2:Okay, so peptides are all the rage these days? They are, and there are two peptides that I've been, I mean I've almost hit. You know, purchase, purchase, purchase. But I haven't done it. Well, did do it once and you know what. It came back saying wrong zip code, wrong zip code, and then I, my credit card got denied. I mean, my credit card didn't get, but my I know what you're saying.
Speaker 2:the system didn't take it yeah and to me I thought that was a gift from god right yeah, that was a roadblock. And um, the two one was AOD no BPC-157 for my back, because I do have some back pain, I don't want to give up my hot yoga and I don't want to give up my hiking and then the other is AOD and AOD-96-something-something. Yeah, so, but I you know that was a block and that block I've paid attention to enough about it, but the fda had pulled it.
Speaker 1:The uh, bpc 157, which is a general uh, it's body p. I don't remember the ps, but it's something about um it's. It's about bringing back the, the, the health and the wellness to your joints and things like that. It's um. But regardless, I think at the end of the day, you know, we did a study here on depression and one of the things we had such a beautiful outcome what we found was it was teaching people how to find their desired outcome. And then I'm, I'm, I'm very, very much overgeneralizing and summarizing, but for a purpose is that it was teaching people how to find their desired outcome. And what was fascinating is, when we hear that term, desired outcome, we think, well, that's what I want from the world. It's like, well, I can't control that. What we taught them was how, what do I want out of me? How do I decide? How do I decide what my desired outcome for me is?
Speaker 1:And that's where we took people who had depression for more than a decade, some for multiple decades, and had never had any kind of remission. They, we moved them into remission and we just a spoiler alert we just did a two year follow up to two and a half year follow up and, of those who participated, their depression is still in remission because they're continuing to use their skills of finding what it is that they we need to go is making sure one we know who we are, we know what it is we need, we know what it is that we're after with whatever it is that we're about to put in our body, whether it's food, whether it's supplement, whether it's medication, whatever it is. Is that what is my goal here? What do I want, and is doing this going to get me to where I'm trying to go?
Speaker 2:So true.
Speaker 1:So where can people pick up this book?
Speaker 2:It's on Amazon. So if you just type in testosterone the next drug epidemic it'll pop up Awesome and there's. I don't control what they do, so there's all sorts of specials. Sometimes the audible is free, sometimes they do Kindle promotions, sometimes the paperback, so yeah, Right, because Amazon owns audible.
Speaker 1:Yes, so it's on audible.
Speaker 2:It's on audible Kindle and in paperback Fantastic.
Speaker 1:This is so cool. Thank you so much for sharing your story, for that bravery to step out there and talk about some of the most painful times in your life and to just lay a pathway for people that maybe they can consider. Do I know me? Do I know what it is that I need and where is it that I'm trying to go? And they have time and space to consider that, based on where you've been. So thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me. It was so good to be here.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
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