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Restoration Beyond the Couch
The Beyond the Couch with Dr. Lee Long podcast is intended solely for general informational purposes and does not represent the practice of medicine, therapeutic and psychiatric services, nursing, or other professional health care services. It also does not constitute the provision of medical, therapeutic or psychiatric advice, and no doctor/patient relationship is established. The information on this podcast and any materials linked from it are used at the user's own risk. The content provided through this podcast should not be considered a replacement for professional medical, therapeutic, or psychiatric advice, diagnosis, or treatment. It is important that users do not ignore or postpone seeking medical, therapeutic, or psychiatric advice for any health or mental health condition they might have, and should always consult with their health care professionals regarding such conditions.
Restoration Beyond the Couch
The Millennial and Gen Z Impact on Relationships and Society
In this episode of Restoration Beyond the Couch, Dr. Lee Long and Dr. Sara Blakeney explore how Millennials and Gen Z are reshaping relationships, culture, and community. From communication shifts to evolving values, they unpack the impact these generations are having on society and what it means for the future.
Welcome to Restoration Beyond the Couch. I'm Dr Lee Long and in today's episode I'm joined by Dr Sarah Blakeney, one of our counselors here at Restoration and the author of Calling Out the Gold Equipping Millennials to be the Next Church Leaders. In this conversation we take a closer look at generational shifts, especially the unique values, challenges and strengths of millennials. From leadership and purpose to mental wellness and faith. We'll explore what it means to support and empower the next generation. Your path to mental wellness starts here. Welcome, dr Sarah Blakeney. It is so good to have you with us today. I am excited for you to share with our audience your research on the impacts that the relationship between different generations and would you well, first of all, welcome.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:And you are a therapist here with us at Restoration and you work with marriages, families.
Speaker 2:I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist.
Speaker 1:There you go.
Speaker 2:And also part of your illustrious DBT program.
Speaker 1:Yes, we do love our DBT don't we. So talk to us about. Can you give us a quick overview about your research and just what was the inspiration in you? Wanting to understand the different generations and the impact that different generations have on one another? And you can illuminate much better or elucidate much better than I on your research.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. First of all, this is so fun to do this with you Awesome, so I'm glad to be here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so most of my career, whether it's been in counseling or church ministry, has been with the millennial generation.
Speaker 2:So I started out in youth ministry back in the 90s when millennials were in high school and I've just sort of followed millennials throughout my career and I noticed right away that millennials were different from other generations and I couldn't quite put my finger on it, but I knew that they were really always excited to roll up their sleeves and get involved in the activities the world around them social justice, whatever the cause was they wanted to be a part of.
Speaker 2:They were also really quick to question any metanarratives, anything that was assumed to be a given in life, and so, being in church ministry, that was a lot of times in the institution of the church, them asking well, why, why does it have to be this way? And really wanting to figure it out at a grassroots level, like in a collaborative way. Can we do life together and figure this out together, as opposed to an authority disseminating information and just like telling them how it's going to be and them accepting that. So I've seen it both in Christian ministry and in counseling, where the clients want to collaborate with me to, as we say in DBT, build a life worth living for themselves.
Speaker 1:Right. You know that that's one of the things that I think I have enjoyed learning from your perspective is you hear a lot of criticisms of, oh, that's a millennial way of going about it and it seems to be a negative, a negative sentiment. And I think that one of the things that I love about what you've done is is that you've actually illuminated something that I think this generation really is teaching us, especially about relationships, like why there was a, there was somebody, that there was an old story that somebody told me that you know, a woman was was preparing for Christmas dinner and she cut the ham in half and her daughter asked mom, why do you cut the ham in half? She was like, well, uh, yeah, that's a good question.
Speaker 1:I don't know, let's ask your grandmother. And so they asked the grandmother, who was still living, and she said mom, why do we cut the ham in half? She goes oh well, because when I was growing up, the oven that we had was really small, so we had to do it so it would fit. And the the mother never questioned it, she just went with the dissemination of we cut the ham in half and the daughter questioned it and it was like oh, so I don't have to cut this ham in half, and I thought that was really and it was an. It was an interesting thing that I you know that.
Speaker 2:Yes that. So your ham analogy is so good because it's representative of one of these meta narratives right, these, one of these stories, one of these concepts that we hold as truth. And why? Because it's always been done that way. And so, what's interesting, when I was doing my PhD research, I was really taking a look at millennials and now Gen Z, who are very unique as generations because they are the first fully postmodern generations, and what postmodernism means is that they reject these metanarratives. So, in other words, when they're going through life and someone who's an authority says well, we cut the ham in half.
Speaker 2:They're like well, why? Well, because it's always been done that way. No, that's speaking a different language to them. For postmodernism, reality is constructed is constructed.
Speaker 1:So would it be safe to say that there's postmodernism is wrapped up in the whole idea of my perception? Is my reality Like? Is that rooted in postmodernism?
Speaker 2:Absolutely Okay.
Speaker 1:Yes, okay.
Speaker 2:Which is, you know, in a counseling context that really jives, because you want to validate someone's subjective reality as a starting point for working with them, you know, and then being able to challenge from there. But the first step is to validate that, and so you know that's my train of thought.
Speaker 1:I think that's really interesting to to conceptualize it from that place, of it being such a subjective experience, right, because you know the, the cause, cause, how, how long of a. I mean this postmodernism, this is brand new. I mean, has there been from from what you've, from what you've uncovered? Has there been?
Speaker 2:that big of a of a mindset shift or a worldview shift in generations, Like how long has that been? It is it represents a seismic shift. I mean, this is what is so uncanny to me is that millennials are the first fully postmodern generation. So the rest of us I'm Gen X, and before that, for the last 300 years plus, has been the enlightenment age, the age of reason, I think. Therefore, I am so I'm having thoughts, disembodied information, right, that's what these meta narratives are. We cut the ham in half because we have this idea, this knowledge that we've always done it this way.
Speaker 1:Right. And by disembodied I'm asking do you mean like, where am I in that?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I am not in that. I don't know why I can't fully embrace that, because I'm not sure where where I exist in that.
Speaker 2:Exactly. I'm not having the same lived experience that my great grandmother had, right, right.
Speaker 1:Because my oven isn't small. Yeah, hers was.
Speaker 2:Exactly so. The the beautiful part of this postmodern generation is they're coming along and in some ways, taking a wrecking ball to some of these understood, accepted meta narratives and by asking why, why does it have to be this way?
Speaker 1:You know, what I think is interesting about that is that wrecking ball can be seen as a positive or it could be seen as a negative. And I think often, when we ask why, I think that some, sometimes the person who's who's receiving that question, the person who's being asked that question, um, it seems like it can be a really personal thing and I'm curious if that's, if you believe that's part of the reason why there's such a rub with Jenna. And well, maybe not Gen X, but the Enlightenment period versus the postmodern period is, don't question me. And it's like, are millennials though in Gen Z, are they really questioning me? Like, like this young daughter was not questioning her mother or her grandmother, she was questioning the ham you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:Like I wonder if that concept is at play the rationality of it, the reason, the rationale of it.
Speaker 2:You know why are we doing it this way?
Speaker 2:And you're absolutely right, that can feel like a threat to authorities, to those who consider themselves subject matter experts in a particular field. If one of these younger generations comes along and says well, help me understand why do we do it this way, that can feel threatening. But it's the posture of oh, and this is why a lot of people have accused these younger generations of being narcissistic and not team players. Because they're asking these questions, they are challenging some of these metanarratives, and so you're absolutely right, it's not that they're trying to buck the system or authority in a rebellious way. What they're wanting to do is create meaning in their lives. Because if reality is constructed, if reality is subjective and reality is what I say it is then they're going to need to be questioning all sorts of things, because it's all data that's helping them build the sense of self, because it's not bestowed on them, it's created, and there's pros and cons to that right, I mean think about the existential angst that you have when you're in charge of creating your own reality.
Speaker 2:That's a tall order.
Speaker 1:Right. I think an interesting thing about that whole piece of trying to create your own reality or trying to learn your own sense of identity. I think it is like you said, there's pros and cons. I think there's so much beauty there, or potential beauty, to open yourself up to community, to an understanding of, because when you think about the greatest law, there's one, in one time only, when Jesus is asked a question in the Bible, that he answers directly with a very direct answer. It's in all three synoptic gospels Matthew, mark and Luke. And it is okay rabbi, okay teacher. Of all of these laws, and there were 613 laws. So the question was asked of all of these 613 laws, which one was the greatest? And his answer was love. Thank you, bono, for you, gen Z, or our, our Gen X, is there out there listening. Thank you, love is the highest law, love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, soul and mind. And the second one is much like the first that you would love your neighbor, how, in the way you love yourself. It's an inverted sentence. So it's love God, love yourself, so that you have the capacity or the knowledge to love others.
Speaker 1:And the thing that struck me when we were talking about your research is this generation is really setting up, not just for themselves, but for all the generations to come behind them. This question of how do I love myself? Therefore, there is no. No, that's the pro. The con can be, I can get stuck on trying to love myself at the cost of seeing anyone other than me, and I think the narcissism piece is more about I am going to find my sense of self through you. In other words, it's not an independent endeavor, it's done through someone else. Therefore, it's not self-focused, it's others focused. I'm asking you to focus on me. That's more along the lines of narcissism, because I don't have a sense of self in that. But I think that there's so much beauty there. Potential beauty is to set up generations to come, and themselves in generations to come, of learning to self-discovery.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely, yes, and it goes back to that the difference between finding it together through a collaborative relationship versus these pieces of knowledge that don't have any lived experience. And I think it's a whole different way of looking at the Christian life, and scripture as well, because if we're looking at the Bible as just a set of proof texts to live a moralistic life, that is why it's that that is causing millennials and then Gen Z to be some of the most unchurched, de-churched generations among us. And in fact that was part of my PhD. Research is to figure out why millennials were part of what's called this dropout phenomenon, and so all of this played into this. They're like I have to do all this stuff just because you're telling me to.
Speaker 2:That's not going to fly, and so instead, just to your point, looking at the Christian life as a relationship of love with one another and with our higher power. It's about relationship, it's about an incarnational experience, meaning the Bible is not just a set of proof texts. It's a story about a God who came and lived among us, the incarnation in relationship with one another, in a mutual way where, yes, I'm discovering who I am and then I'm bringing myself into a friendship, into a family relationship, and then let's discover together how we're going to be in relationship and how we're going to learn to love one another in a healthy way and in a way that really taps into how we're created to be.
Speaker 1:I think that's interesting because you think you take the church, you take any institution, you take the workplace. And somebody was saying that by 20, I think it was 2030, somewhere in there, maybe it was 2050, that the whole nine to five concept will be a concept of the past. And I thought to myself why I sound like a millennial. No, I'm kidding, but why and I think it's really pointing to what your research is elucidating is this is the fact that, well, why do we do nine to five? Why do we have, why do? Why does work have to look this way? And it's that is being questioned.
Speaker 1:You know, I had somebody say to me I don't want to be when I'm 60 years old or 70 years old, I don't want to be irrelevant in the workplace. And my thought to him was I don't think you'll be irrelevant in the workplace If you learn to play well with others that are several generations younger than you. And it's, in other words, it's learning to accept those that are generations younger than you and understand them differently and not be threatened by them. And it was interesting. The conversation that ensued after that was yeah, but they don't do it.
Speaker 1:I was like and I finished their sentence the way you do. Right, and so can we. You know, I'm just thinking about being an employer, this group that's coming up, the gen, the millennials, the Gen Z, the whatever generation is below the Gen Z Like, can we be open to, to walking through the why with them and if, if, if a parent is listening of of a, of a millennial or of a Gen Z, it's like, well, we didn't do it that way. I mean, I don't know how often do we hear that in our offices.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I didn't do it that way, and I mean the reality is we're going to have to learn because the shift has happened Right.
Speaker 1:Like it or not. Like it or not, here it is.
Speaker 2:The age of reason is over. Wow, we're in a whole different epistemological age, which means how do we know what we know? And so we have to learn how to bridge the gap with the generations. And I was thinking about this. It really is, because we can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. We still need rational mind, information, we need a plumb line of truth and facts and scientific method of how to navigate our lives, and so we need a both and be able to for these younger generations and the older generations to come together and bring the best parts of both in a way that, in DBT terms, has us in our wise mind.
Speaker 1:Right. And to describe wise mind, it's the. You have a circle that you that are. It's two concentric circles, right, and you have one. Once again coming back to the fact that was that that wisdom is really embodying relationship. It's embodying that connection, it's the both. And how would you encourage a Gen X or a baby boomer generation, how would you encourage those generations to interact with the millennial generation and the Gen Z?
Speaker 2:That's such a great question understanding that the younger generations are going to need collaboration and figuring things out together. So, whether it's a parent-child relationship, a teacher-student relationship, a therapist-client relationship, giving the younger generations a safe place to wonder out loud.
Speaker 1:So, in other words, don't be threatened. Please don't be threatened by the wonder. Even if you believe this has been figured out, there's no need to question this. It is okay to question that. That's not a personal attack.
Speaker 2:That's right. That's right. And I'm thinking again about scripture and how Jesus said I am the way. Is truth absolute, right, set in stone, or is it relative? Is it just all what I say? It is and constructed. I think that's the wrong argument. Jesus said I am the truth. So truth is a person, truth is the relationship right. And the way Jesus operated as a leader was he had disciples and they did life together. They walked through life together on a journey, so they discovered how to love, how to live life together, how to how to love how to live life together, how to, in DBT terms, build a life worth living in relationship with one another. And so if parents, teachers and therapists can take a cue from the way that Jesus again, that incarnational way of helping others, come along with me. Let's do this together.
Speaker 1:You know, the interesting thing about that is that's doing leadership out like leadership lived out, and that is something that I believe we are being called to Like. This generation is requesting that. I want to see you live an authentic. If you say that sleep is good for me, I want to see you sleep well too. If you say that getting all my protein is good for me, then I want to see that you do that as well, and I want to know why. What is it? And I agree with you that the, the, the curiosity, but it's also the well, do you do the same thing?
Speaker 1:The curiosity, but it's also the well, do you do the same thing? And there is such a I don't know if it's a call to action or if it's a call to embodiment, Like you keep saying incarnational. That's in a call to embodiment, it's the embodying of what you believe so truly, it's a call to authenticity.
Speaker 2:I was about to say the exact same word authenticity and I.
Speaker 1:I, you know you were talking about the pros and the cons. I mean to me, as I've, as I've, as you and I have unpacked your research and you have really I keep using the word, but elucidated this for me. I have been more excited about these younger generations. Like I almost get so fired up I could run through a brick wall out of excitement because there's so much, like you said.
Speaker 1:The authenticity is there. The connection is there In all the research I've done on depression chronic depression that comes by way often that comes by way of early childhood trauma which impacts attachment. Right is all about connecting. It's all about the therapist connecting with the person sitting on the sofa and obviously connecting in appropriate ways, but it's all interpersonal.
Speaker 1:Absolutely and that is what we've seen in the research. There is that that interpersonal connection really does help decrease depression, and so these millennials and these Gen Zers are really, I would say, intrinsically calling out for what we're proving in science is effective.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:That's super encouraging.
Speaker 2:And it's this third wave of psychotherapy you know where. It's about showing up as yourself, still that professional relationship and distance, but bringing yourself as a therapist into the office and saying you know what this skill really works well for me too, and let me let me tell you times that I use it in my life. And that's that's us being authentic as people, not just these authorities, people that are we're setting ourselves up.
Speaker 1:We say you should use this, therefore use it Exactly.
Speaker 2:And they're going go jump in the lake. Why, you know?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so to be able to embody the very healing that we're trying to offer to our clients is profound and powerful.
Speaker 1:It is profound and powerful. And the beauty again, I mean where, with all of the studies, the research that I've done is on CBASP, and CBASP really has it embodies a lot of what you're describing in that you that the, the therapeutic relationship, is used as a tool in the session. Therefore, if someone is reading your mind or saying, well, I know what you think it's like, wait, I don't, I don't get to be a part of this conversation. When that said, I feel left out because I don't get to, I don't get to say what I think. It's just assumed already. Where's my place in that? And what I've seen is that when I, when, when that process is engaged with with the, with the person being treated, that it's they say, oh my gosh, yeah, my spouse or my partner or my friend or my mom or my whomever, my other relationships Tell me I do that to them too. It's like, yeah, well, can I be a part of this conversation? Can you let me tell you what I think? And it's bringing that relationship into the therapeutic experience that is I have found to be so powerful and the research has shown to be so powerful and I wonder, I wonder if that now hang with me as I wonder, as we've been talking about, I wonder if there is a way for us to encourage people bosses, authority figures, parents, teachers, all of all of those people who are in authority.
Speaker 1:I wonder if there's a way to encourage all of those to ask questions, maybe a little bit differently, meaning, how are you showing up in this student employee, you know, child, um, how are you showing up in this what? What's kind of coming up for you in this, like, in other words, asking them to show up, like, like inviting them to show up in the questioning. And I also wonder if there's a place of the parent, the authority figure, to say hey, this is how this is impacting me, without making the other person responsible for their feelings, because I don't ever want to do that as a therapist, to make the, the, the, the client or patient responsible for my feelings. That's not it at all. I just want them to see the impact that they have on me. I will handle my feelings, but I want you to see what the impact is. I wonder if there's a way for us to display that. I don't know a better way to say that.
Speaker 2:Yes, because at that point the self, the therapist, the parent, the teacher becomes a tool by their own experience, their own relationship with the one that they're trying to heal. Teach, disciple, whatever it is.
Speaker 1:Right and that experiential piece is. I mean, I would imagine that that's very much rooted in postmodernism. Absolutely Is that it is all about experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's really a beautiful way of, I think, of characterizing this as, like we, we we are being called to a different experience with these generations, and can we be open to that experience?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:You know, I wonder if a practical example and I'm asking you a practical example of this might be that you know you have, uh, like, like, let's take a parenting example. If you have a kid who made a as I like to call a boneheaded mistake and, uh, let's say that they, um, let's say they snuck out and you that, you know where are you in that parent? As a parent, you probably feel hurt and betrayed. Why did they go against you? And it cause it would feel personal. But it may look like asking your kid what were you after? Why did you do that? What? What were you thinking? Not in the what were you thinking? Not in the what were you thinking? Where it's a rhetorical shaming question, but really a what was the thought pattern behind that? What were you after? Because a, I want to find you parent. I want to first parent. You got to start with you. Where are you in that? Well, I'm hurt. Okay, don't hand your hurt to your kid. Hold on to your hurt, explore that. But then let's discover them.
Speaker 1:Why did you do the thing that you did? What was it about that? That was so alluring and and pulled you into it and then, once they tell you well, it sounded like it would be a good time. Okay, can I tell you what that good time did to me? It lowers my trust. It makes me wonder are you, you know? Are you making good decisions? Like, are you thinking this all the way through? And the impact on me is I don't trust as much. Now, therefore, we're going to have to work to rebuild that trust. So I'm wondering is that a? Is that a reasonable example?
Speaker 2:A great example because it's showing that, hey, we're in this world together, we're trying to construct this thing called a loving family, and so in doing that, you're let's, let's take a look at where we're doing it and we're not doing that together. And then what's interesting is, like, kind of inherent in that, is this idea of values, the parents bringing some values, some implied values, into that situation. We want to be a family that trusts each other. We want to be a family that has some rules that we follow. So here's the benefit, here's why we don't want to throw out the whole enlightenment thinking rational part of the equation, because values, that's a metanarrative right there. That is this overarching rubric that we're going to live our life by. So we can't just say, okay, millennials, let's just construct willy-nilly our reality ground up. There's still a place for, as a family, or a school, or a church or a therapy session, to live by these overarching values.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:Because when we're living congruent with our values, that's where we're going to have a sense of peace inside of ourselves and in relationship with one another.
Speaker 1:Which is such a yes. Thank you for laying all of that out, because I'm thinking from, like, as an employer. You know, it's the hey, that deadline was missed. And you know it's like wait, employer, before you go in there and scorch earth on that younger employee. It's like wait, where are you? Well, I'm left kind of hanging out to dry. Younger employee it's like wait, where are you? Well, I'm left kind of hanging out to dry. Now, now I have to figure out how to dance around getting this accomplished. I was counting on you and so I was let down. And then it's the again. It's.
Speaker 1:We don't go in there with shame and blame, but we go in there with curiosity and asking like hey, what happened? Like, help me understand this, because now I'm left high and dry by you. Your behavior left me high and dry. I think there's a distinction there. It's not necessarily coming after that employee's identity, but that behavior left me high and dry. How? How are we going to fix this? Because we're going to have to fix this together and I really need you to step up here with me to figure out how we're going to get this accomplished. And so you're what? What? What we're suggesting here is that's more of the embodied, uh authentic relationship approach, as opposed to the hey you jerk kid, you didn't do this and you're in trouble. I'm going to dock your pay.
Speaker 2:Do it because I said so Right.
Speaker 1:Sarah, this is so enlightening.
Speaker 1:I know we've left the enlightening era and we're in the postmodern era. But this is really that. Your research. I will just speak from my perspective. Your research has been so freeing for me to I'm not a millennial having so much, so much wonderful beauty and excitement to to offer to this world. It has been so encouraging to me. So thank you for what you've done here and just for coming on and sharing this with us. Um it. I hope that this is life changing for our listeners. It we like to end with one practical piece of wisdom that someone could walk with throughout their day. What's one thing that you could leave our listeners with that could encourage them throughout their week.
Speaker 2:Oh, I love that question, I think, to the millennials and the Gen Zs in our life. Listen to them, ask them questions, be curious about them first. I love that. That's meeting them where they are.
Speaker 1:And I would. I would add one thing, if you'll allow me to please. They have so much to teach us and please be open to that which is what you said. Be meet them with curiosity, be open to what they have to say. That's great, well, thank you, dr Sarah Blakeney.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me. As always, it is a pleasure to get to spend time with you. Likewise Thank you Thanks.
Speaker 3:If you found value in our discussion and wish to uncover more about the fascinating world of mental wellness, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Stay tuned for our upcoming episodes, where Dr Long will continue to delve into empowering therapies and strategies for mental wellness. Your journey to understanding and embracing mental health is just beginning and we're excited to have you with us every step of the way. Until next time, keep exploring, keep growing and remember to celebrate restored freedom as you uncover it.
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