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Restoration Beyond the Couch
The Beyond the Couch with Dr. Lee Long podcast is intended solely for general informational purposes and does not represent the practice of medicine, therapeutic and psychiatric services, nursing, or other professional health care services. It also does not constitute the provision of medical, therapeutic or psychiatric advice, and no doctor/patient relationship is established. The information on this podcast and any materials linked from it are used at the user's own risk. The content provided through this podcast should not be considered a replacement for professional medical, therapeutic, or psychiatric advice, diagnosis, or treatment. It is important that users do not ignore or postpone seeking medical, therapeutic, or psychiatric advice for any health or mental health condition they might have, and should always consult with their health care professionals regarding such conditions.
Restoration Beyond the Couch
Decoding the Enneagram's Intelligence Centers
In this episode of Restoration Beyond the Couch, Dr. Lee Long is joined again by Certified Enneagram Coaches Dayna Corley and Jeddy Bowen of Telos Consulting for a deeper look into the Enneagram's three intelligence centers—head, heart, and gut. Together, they unpack how each center shapes our reactions, relationships, and paths to growth.
Whether you're new to the Enneagram or looking to deepen your self-awareness, this conversation offers powerful insight into the way we think, feel, and move through the world.
Welcome to Restoration Beyond the Couch. I'm Dr Lee Long and today we're diving even deeper into the Enneagram, one of our most popular topics. Alongside two incredible guests, I'm joined by Dana Corley and Jetty Bowen, both certified Enneagram coaches and co-owners of Telos Consulting. Jetty is also a therapist here at Restoration Counseling. Dana and Jetty bring years of combined experience in counseling, coaching and spiritual formation and together we're exploring how each Enneagram type shows up in real life Relationships, stress, growth and everything in between. Whether you're new to the Enneagram or you've been studying it for years, this episode is full of rich insights to help you better understand yourself and the people around you. Your path to mental wellness starts here. Welcome Dana and Jetty. Back to Rest, to restoration on the couch.
Speaker 1:Our first episode. We covered sort of the ins and the outs of the Enneagram. You guys went, you ladies went through all the different numbers, the one through nine and um, but it was a hit. People love it. We got a lot of positive feedback. So we wanted to have you back to kind of go deeper, because there's so many more questions that come from the Enneagram and that's honestly that's some of the criticism of the Enneagram is it's so difficult. But in my mind that's part of the beauty of the Enneagram is that we are so complex. Therefore, the complexity of the Enneagram, I feel like, replicates or represents humanity so much more accurately, or people so much more accurately. So welcome back.
Speaker 2:Thank you, we're so glad to be here.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having us back, of course.
Speaker 1:So let's do a deeper dive into the Enneagram. Where would you recommend we start with that deeper dive? What would be something that would be, you think, pivotal for our listeners to understand, to unfold the Enneagram for them.
Speaker 2:So one of the areas of the Enneagram that's critical for us to understand ourselves and one another is understanding one of the triads called the three centers of intelligence. And I want to just remind everybody that the Enneagram is simply a mapping system designed to explore our interior infrastructure in order to become aware of the ways that we don't live out of the truth of our being, the essence of who God made us to be.
Speaker 1:I like that. I like that visual of the mapping system. That's really cool, so say more about that.
Speaker 2:About the mapping system. Yeah Well, that's one of the reasons that it probably seems complex, also because there are so many different layers to it, and the only way we actually get to the place of transformation is by observing ourselves with honesty in a variety of ways of our being. So we take in information, we process that information, we then engage with that information and move into action. So this mapping system is based on our thinking, our feelings and our action, or our doing, and the three centers of intelligence are actually what bear out the type. So these three centers is the way one habitually responds to the world around them, and which intelligence center is going to be the one they move out of which one is the main drive for that personality. So even the arrangement of the numbers on the diagram are very specific, based on the center of intelligence that they fall into.
Speaker 1:So it's almost like a dominant throwing arm. It's like whether it's intellectual thinking, whether it's emotional feeling or whether it's behavior through the doing. Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:So the body center, the gut center, is based out of the root brain, it's based out of the brainstem, it's the human instincts that are felt in the body. It includes the five senses, and so that is what propels us to action.
Speaker 3:And so that that's the what we call the gut center. This is where our instincts are, that dominant, throwing arm kind of like you described, and this is how we receive information in the world, and the numbers that make up that center are the eights, nines and the ones. And so she said this is the brain stem dominant, which is also referred to as our reptilian brain, right Like those instinctual drives.
Speaker 1:So, so I have a question for you about this. When, when you're, when we're talking about our dominant throwing arm, I know we come into the world a certain way. Right, we come into the world formed and shaped and predetermined with a personality, with a style, with an essence. But we also know that it's like genetics, but we also have epigenetics that go on top of that which really encompasses the environment, that go on top of that which really encompasses the environment. So how then, before we get too deep into these, how then do like, if someone comes in and has a say, a traumatic birth or a traumatic childhood, how does that impact these, these, this triad?
Speaker 2:So that's a great question, and the reality of all of the development of our personality is influenced by all of our experiences impact the personality itself in its development, but the belief is that we are imbued by our Creator with a particular essence of who he made us to be and how the image of God in each of us manifests itself in order to create a more beautiful world and community of of humanity.
Speaker 1:That I I appreciate that, because I think now we're going to go over the river and through the woods but I promise we'll end up at grandma's here but there's an, there is this, this, this essence that you're describing right, and that, this, that, that trauma.
Speaker 1:I think we all would agree that trauma doesn't change the essence of who we are, but it alters us in ways that are really painful. And it's like I think about, like we have, like in sleep, we have a chronotype which means it's the way that our rhythms work in our body and there may be some that are early to bed, some that are moderate bedtime and some that are late. They're just late night out, night owls. There we go, and that flows on a genetic sort of a predetermined, and so, yes, we can force somebody to go to bed earlier, but it's going to impact their REM. And we can ask somebody to stay up later, but it's going to impact their REM. And we can ask somebody to stay up later, but it's going to impact their deep sleep, but it doesn't change their chronotype. And that's what you're saying is, this doesn't change the essence of who we are, it it? But it impacts us in that style of how um we show up in the world? Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great example that we have different circadian rhythms.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And so same with personality, and I think that's part of the uniqueness that God's given each of us. But they are impacted by all of our experiences. And in the Enneagram world there's a belief that what happens because of our experiences, and in the Enneagram world there's a belief that what happens because of our experiences, through our environment, through the culture, fill in the blank, that there's a disconnect from the truth of our being and the ego takes over and filters the world through a distorted lens in order to figure out how to survive in the world. And so it's. The personality is developed out of the ego. The essence doesn't have to be developed like that. It is who we are.
Speaker 1:And would you define for our listeners what you're describing as the ego?
Speaker 2:The ego, to me, is the mechanisms that we use for survival in order to protect ourselves from getting hurt like the defenses like the defenses, in order to promote ourselves, to have significance and worth and value, because we've lost the connection with the truth of our being that says we're inherently valued because we're made in the image of God and we are completely and overwhelmingly, unconditionally loved, no matter what. But we've lost that connection, so we have to prove ourselves.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I would say. Just another kind of term we use for ego would be adapted self, like that adapted version of us, how we've learned how to survive, and the false self, that adapted version of us how we've learned how to survive and the false self.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, yeah, well, yeah, the reason why I ask is because I know that there's. There's Freud's term ego, there's the Enneagram term of ego, there's, we use that, and then then then there's sort of the colloquial term of ego, which they all mean something to me a bit different and I like the nuance to make sure that this is not misunderstood.
Speaker 2:No good clarification, Thanks yeah.
Speaker 1:So, so we have the gut. So there's the triad, there's three.
Speaker 3:Yes, okay. So so after the gut, the gut again is made up of the eights, nines and ones. Then we have the heart triad. This is our feeling center, so these people take information in through feelings. First, right, this is called the heart center, and they are made up of the twos, threes and fours, so we're basically just going along the grid of the Enneagram right Clockwise, and this is, as we described, the gut center being reptilian brain or brainstem kind of dominant. That's where they receive information. The heart center is receiving information really on the right hemisphere of the brain, which is made up of our emotion. That's our emotion center. It's also our relational center, and so people in the heart center, they are really focused on how others experience them, and relationships, relationships are paramount to them.
Speaker 2:So the third one is the head center, also called the thinking center, and this is born out of the area of our brain, the left hemisphere, also called the neocortex or cerebral cortex, and people in this center experience the world through their thoughts and through thinking their way through the world. Now we're going to get more specific in all of these, but good that that's overall, the three different ones, right?
Speaker 2:and so when they're organized in the enneagram grid, on that, on that diagram, that's to to show so much about the Enneagram, the gut, eight, nines and ones again, they are that body center that feels their way through the world through their senses. The twos, threes and fours feel their way through the world through their emotions and in regard to relationships. And the gut center is more primal in its orientation. And then the head center is moving through the world using the thinking, reasoning, logical skills to make sense of all the information that they're taking in, reasoning, logical skills to make sense of all the information that they're taking in. So when we get into the details of it, we'll explain why they do these things. But that's the basic premise of what we're talking about today and how we're different in receiving the information that comes to us.
Speaker 1:What's so interesting about this is in one of the things that one of the things that I want to do with this. I don't know if I'm right about it or not, but you think about the eights, nines and ones. I almost said eights, nines and tens, but it's the eights, nines and ones that are the feeling, the perceiving To me. I look at that and think that is focused on intra-personal awareness. It's like a self-awareness, but I don't, I know that in an unhealthy space there's not going to be that self-awareness. And then the twos, threes and fours, focused on that interpersonal awareness which I believe those numbers can lose their sense of self and so that wouldn't be the effective interpersonal. And then the five, six and sevens, all in the thinking. And to me I would say, is that an oscillating and a pendulating, going from from self out to others and then back. But I, I'm going to hold that thought.
Speaker 2:Well, that's really a fascinating yeah, that's a fascinating way to look at it. Any way to look at it, the reality of each center is there's a relationship to a great need For the eights, nines and ones. The need is for power and control and to have autonomy. And so there is this sort of a disconnect, a repression of the emotional center in order to move into the action center. In doing to get the need met of power and control, of maintaining autonomy for themselves.
Speaker 1:So that's their basic drive If you're in the gut center. How would that bear out? What's an example of that?
Speaker 3:Well, let me just clarify real quick it's not a power and control of anyone else, right? She said autonomy, so it's more of maintaining this sense of control of themselves and knowing that other people aren't going to control or tell them what to do, so they can be extremely stubborn. That could be an example, right, like you're not going to tell me what to do, and if you do, depending on my type, I may act like I'm going to do it, but really not Right?
Speaker 1:What would that be? Would that be more of a nine?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm thinking more of a nine, you know say oh sure, that sounds great. And then they disappear and the task never gets done. Yes, yes, the task never gets done.
Speaker 1:It never gets done. Yes, yes, whereas, oh, go ahead.
Speaker 2:Well, when this type's relationship to anger or rage is the most comfortable, the most experienced emotion that eights, nines and ones have, Because when their autonomy gets threatened, when they fear losing that control, then that anger and rage is right there to take over in order to try to prevent that from happening, like as a protective mechanism.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and so the eights have this great need not to be vulnerable. They have a great need to be strong, and so they're immediately. When they sense that their autonomy and their control of themselves, their space, their environment, whatever it is, is being threatened, there's an anger that arises in order to move them into action, to get that back for themselves anger is secondary.
Speaker 1:And there are people who vehemently disagree with me on this and they say well, you're reducing anger, and I'm like I don't believe that saying it's secondary is reducing it. I'm saying that there's something more primal underneath that, where it's a sense of something that puts us on our heels as opposed to pushes us into action, and that that anger is there really to move us into action, and so that is there really to move us into action. And so that's like and all people experience anger.
Speaker 2:That's just a common emotion. We all have it. We can't avoid it. But these three types, it's always underneath the surface and so it's always there. And so these types, they receive the world through the present orientation towards time. They're receiving it all now in order to get what they have to now.
Speaker 2:So that's another thing is the receiving of the information, depending on, the center of intelligence is going to have an orientation towards time and for the gut-body triad, that orientation towards time is in the present. They want it now and depending on whether you're an eight, nine or one, getting into the specifics of each of that, that anger is going to manifest and go outward. For the eight, they're going to externalize that anger onto others and that's why eights have so much energy. They move into a room and people kind of know the eights are here. The eights can be very intimidating because of the energy underneath the surface, of that. I got to protect, I got to be strong. I'm going to be confident, I'm going to take over and take control. Again, it's not about controlling others, it's being in control.
Speaker 1:For themselves, for themselves.
Speaker 2:Yes, go ahead.
Speaker 3:Whereas the nine is going to experience that anger differently, or manage that anger differently, so they don't express the anger quite the same. The nines are really just trying to keep it at bay, so they're almost playing offense and defense at the same time, and so, because their primary need is to maintain a sense of peace, and so that's their way of doing it is to almost just work to forget the anger. And then what happens, though, is they'll then have these little spurts right, because we can't just live life denying our emotions. They're going to come out somewhere.
Speaker 3:They don't go away right. And we can't just deny it. Live life, denying our emotions. They're going to come out somewhere. They don't go away Right. And so for nines they'll have these little like volcanic moments kind of. And it really surprises people because it seems so out of character for them because they can go such a long time just going with the flow and things are fine, until they have a little explosion, Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's like you're going along thinking, oh, that's a beautiful mountain, whereas in reality it's a volcano.
Speaker 3:There's something brewing. When the top blows, it's like whoa. I had no idea. Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so much of their energy is spent keeping things away and keeping things suppressed down in them, Inside of them right, and that's why you don't see a lot of energy coming from the nines. They're using it all internally.
Speaker 1:Right, there's an internal tug of war Right, and then the one, because to me when I see the gut triad I think eights, nines and ones couldn't be more different, and so that has always been confusing to me.
Speaker 2:Well, especially when it comes to the nine, because they're in that action oriented center but you don't see them necessarily taking action quickly. They certainly can, but they just have spent all their energy inside that. It actually takes the pressure of deadlines to move them into action. So it's easy for them to lose themselves in their desires, because the greatest need is maintaining the peace, because maintaining that peace is really about control too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense, that makes sense. And now we have the one.
Speaker 3:So then the ones repress their anger. So for them their anger is they kind of shove it down and then it comes out sideways usually as resentment. And so for them their anger is they kind of shove it down and then it comes out sideways usually as resentment. And so for ones a lot of times that anger that that she described being just right at the surface is really more resentment, and so it comes out kind of sideways more like passive aggression a lot of times.
Speaker 2:One of the things that's also important for the eights, nines and ones in the body triad is they have a natural groundedness to the earth. They are connected to nature in a more significant way than several of the other numbers and it's important for them to move in nature. So that's also an aspect of their that body gut triad. That's kind of important. And exercising or going for walks or hikes, even things like fishing, it doesn't matter. It's just that being connected to the world around him is really important.
Speaker 1:So that's so interesting because I have a friend who's a nine and he is it's. If you ever wonder what he's doing when he's not working, it's always something outside. And he just, if you listen to the way he describes it, he really is describing a grounding I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have thought about it that way until you're saying all of this, but he really is describing a grounding. Sense of this really helps me feel back to myself.
Speaker 3:So yeah, that's interesting. And being driven by that kind of primal instinct in the gut triad, they're very aware of where they are spatially. So it makes sense right If you think about it. It makes sense on kind of a primal level that this center of intelligence is the most focused on, on kind of where they are spatially and that connectedness to nature and the earth.
Speaker 1:It's so funny when we talk about this because, being connected to where you are spatially, sometimes as I move through the world, I am dumbfounded as to how people can run into you and I'm like did you not see?
Speaker 1:that I was literally right here, and I do think that there are people that are repression of fear, anger, hurt, trauma and all this because they've lived so far outside of themselves. But I'd be interested to do a study on this to understand if it is, if it truly is, consistent with these, these intelligence centers and how people show up in the world. Like if you're chronically depressed, you don't understand your impact on the environment. Is that more so with another part of the triad than it is for this one?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great question, Um, and I think it's challenging too in the world we live in today, where there's so many distractions that are right at our fingertips, especially our devices, that really do keep us from being aware in all the intelligence centers, right, right, so yeah, it does still that awake, alert and awareness. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So, so, ok, so we have this gut triad, we have this, where the, the approach to the world is one of of more perceiving than it is. Uh, feeling or judging and then maybe judging is not the better word, but thinking so it's, it's a lot of perception. There's the eight that pushes life out, or shouldn't say pushes, but but moves through life on an outward basis, sort of like a uh, what are those boats that that crack the ice? Whatever, those are right.
Speaker 1:They get they're moving through as that sort of that visual. Then you have the nines who feel like they're having that tug of war. I was watching this video I don't remember where, but of these guys doing this tug of war, where they were like canoeing, like there was a canoeing tug of war, and it was like the most exhausting thing I'd ever seen in my life. It was hilarious but it was exhausting. And when you're talking about nines. To me that canoeing tug of war is.
Speaker 2:what is what it seems like you're describing?
Speaker 1:And then the ones it's like. It's like when something comes in, it goes out like you're saying, it goes out sideways. It's, which is where the passive aggressiveness can come in. Yeah, Okay.
Speaker 2:And a lot of it is because they sense their way through the world. So they're, they're instinctually knowing in their knower, in their gut, what is right and what is wrong. They, these numbers, tend to be more black and white, some more hardcore than others, especially like the ones, because they really do see there's a right and there's a wrong, and there's this way to do it and there's that way to do it way to do it and there's that way to do it. Um, and so that is a very intense pulling of where they need to move into action. And so, for those ones who take on this huge responsibility of wanting the world to be made right, it's an, it's an intensity that never dies within them, and the frustration is that how come nobody else is helping me put this world right? Because they're idealists, they think there is a way the world should operate and should work, yes, and so they're constantly striving for that, and the reality is there's never going to be a perfect world until Jesus comes back.
Speaker 2:There's never going to be a perfect human being until we've left this body, and so learning how to be okay with that. Take care of the underdogs, the weak. They have a very strong responsibility to care for the weak and the poor and to not let them be taken advantage of in life. So that's always under there, driving that also, and these numbers absorb in their body where things aren't right in their opinion.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, so what's the next intelligence center we're going to tackle here? And, by the way, sorry to interrupt the intelligence piece. To me, I don't want to liken that to IQ. To me, it sounds like what we're talking about with intelligence is how do we ingest the world? Because we say emotion quotient, like the emotional intelligence, like they're there. In other other words, intelligence can span a whole lot of topics. Right, and so this is about the way that we show up in the world, as you said at the beginning.
Speaker 3:So okay, and, like you said in jest, because then we get into other and we're not getting into that today, but then there's ways that we, you know, actually move with that information and that's going to look different. So, um, just think of of how we experience information and how we going to look different. So, just think of how we experience information and how we take it in.
Speaker 1:There are so many wrinkles to the Enneagram.
Speaker 3:I know I love it.
Speaker 1:Keep going, this is wonderful.
Speaker 2:And the most important thing to remember is the level of health that you're receiving that information, because there is a more intelligent way of sensing your way through the world instinctually. There is a more intelligent way of sensing your way through the world instinctually. There is a more intelligent way of using your intellect and your education to process the information. And there is a more intelligent emotional way to process it, based on your own level of health and awareness.
Speaker 3:Okay, are we ready for the next?
Speaker 1:Come on the next center. Lay it on us.
Speaker 3:Okay, this is the heart center, right, or also known as the feeling, emotion or relational center. Okay, it's made up of the twos, threes and fours and, just like we talked about the gut center, having this, this primary need or priority, which, for them, is that controller autonomy? For the heart center it is. It's really that, like external validation. Okay, right, I, I am only as valuable as you basically affirm that I am, so yeah.
Speaker 1:So going back to my hypothesis which again I still don't know if this is an accurate one is that idea of the interpersonal meaning self plus others? It really does lose that sense they are. There's a danger to lose that sense of self, to elevate the other meaning. I determine my value and worth by the environment, not by what's intrinsic yes, okay, yes, that's what they struggle with for sure um, so they.
Speaker 3:So again, they focus on relationships, the success in relationships, and this is made up in the right hemisphere of the brain, right. This is our feeling center the, the twos. So we're gonna talk about how they manage this. The feeling which I did not describe, the feeling the most accessible, familiar emotion for the heart center is shame or sadness. It's going to be managed differently for each of the three types. So the twos they're externalizing that. They are, um, uh, the sadness that they experience actually moves them outward, and so twos are much more focused on what other people need and what other people are experiencing than themselves. The threes are kind of similar to the nine, trying to just keep it at bay and are again kind of playing offense and defense at the same time and forget the shame. And what happens with the threes is they are really the type that essentially loses themselves. Oftentimes this like core of who I am. I don't really know who that is, because it's I am what you want me to be essentially.
Speaker 1:And so we know that twos are more of the connector or the helper, and threes are more of the performer. And so in the two is it about like it's all about, the relationship, but in the three, what would? What would that be? I mean it's is it about the relationship or is it about the affirmation of you are good.
Speaker 3:It's more of. It's more about the affirmation and that validation of I am worthy. Right Threes equate love with admiration. So I'm more focused on being admired. So it's more of how you see me rather than the relationship itself. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:Makes perfect sense.
Speaker 3:Okay, and then for the fours. They internalize that shame.
Speaker 1:So, going back to the three, sorry. So when you said, does that make sense? It makes perfect sense because it's it's really about in an unhealthy way. It could become about a facade. Yes, therefore, I'm going to to dress the part instead of authentically being the part, and if that's what you want, that's what I'll give you. If that's not what you want, I will work to figure out what you want, which I would imagine makes other people feel very loved and wanted and like, if we get into a potentially unhealthy dance, that could be very affirming for both parties in a potentially negative way.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the relationship itself is a performance right when we're not aware, and again, this is why they lose themselves. If I'm always changing my mask for what the environment requires or demands for me to be admired, then who am I below the surface?
Speaker 1:So maybe Eminem was a three.
Speaker 2:The whole lose yourself, or maybe he was in the heart triad he was in the heart triad and I think it's important to remember that those in the heart triad. They experience the shame and sadness because early on they didn't feel like they were loved for who they were. So all three of the types within this triad learned to perform just simply in a different way and went after what they thought they needed in order to get that love. And so the sadness comes from. Am I ever really loved for who I am?
Speaker 1:So? So here's my question to that is is it a perception because of the way that you arrive into the world, the way that you, just the essence of your being in this triad is that is that just simply how you receive the world and therefore you categorize it, even with the pot, in that manner, even with this beautiful, positive intention of the parent saying I don't want you to perform for me, but I don't know that you're a three. Therefore I don't know how to tell you that, so that it locks in and connects and they you ingested in that way. Does that make sense?
Speaker 3:Yes, and I would agree with you on that. I mean, you think about what gets reinforced right and that shapes us, and so I am a three. As a three, I wouldn't describe my childhood as me feeling like I wasn't loved at all, but when I look back in yeah, but you're awesome she is.
Speaker 1:But when I look back, and yeah, but you're awesome she is.
Speaker 3:But when I look back, it's it's if you think about everything that gets reinforced, it's all those, those inner kind of motives in me that already existed. I wasn't aware of, of course, right, Right, but I was able to, kind of, you know, meet expectations and of course that's what gets reinforced is able to kind of you know, meet expectations and of course that's what gets reinforced, or for a two, for example.
Speaker 3:They're reinforced by how helpful they can be and how such a helper, yeah, and how thoughtful and so, yeah, I totally agree with what with what you just said.
Speaker 2:So these, these numbers Taken the world through a very personal position. I am in the gut triad, my husband's in the three triad. I hurt his feelings all the time and I'm not intending to, but it's all personal to him, right, because it's all through the relational lens and am I loved.
Speaker 3:And I want to also point out real quick, because we did mention this with the gut the way that we receive information in this center is is oriented to the past, okay, so. So, when you think about relationally right like I, then can be triggered by, oh, what I experienced back in high school that felt so similar to this. Do you know what I mean? Right, yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yes, and so how would you describe a four? I don't want to overlook a four. Thank you, go ahead.
Speaker 2:So a four is again a performer for people to love them for who they are, and their value is authenticity. Their value is uniqueness. Because for that four, they see that they're not enough. They see that they don't have what it takes to be fully loved, and so they have to in some ways perform for that by being special, by being unique and different in order to be noticed. Because all of the types in this need a lot of affirmation, they need the validation that they are good, that they are okay, that they are competent.
Speaker 1:Fill in the blank Sure, because if I'm receiving, if I am judging myself judging is not the best word If I'm evaluating myself by way of the external environment, then I have to hear from that environment on the regular. Yes, but here's the question that I have about the fours is to me, it seems logical that if a four is known, then does the four interpret being known as a lack of uniqueness. Therefore, it's almost like trying to mix oil and water, because if you know me, then did I lose my sense of unique Because you now know?
Speaker 3:So that's a really good question, and there's a challenge relationally with, I would say, four in particular. But all of the numbers in this triad is that kind of push and pull dynamic and for the four, that shame communicates to them that there is something inherently lacking in them. And so there's this belief that if you really knew me you wouldn't love me because there's something missing. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:Perfect sense me. You wouldn't love me because there's something missing. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Perfect sense, yeah, so that that desire for authenticity is really a push me, pull me, because while they want that, they're also afraid of that. And again, in that, if you really knew me and I wasn't as special as I'm trying to make you believe I am, then I don't really stand out, and then what? But what they fail to understand is we're all unique and authentic in the way God made us and we don't have to do anything, perform any way in order to be special and unique. We already are.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I will tell you, there was a moment in my life when somebody who not only do I admire, I probably slightly idolize they said to me something to the effect of just your presence alone is valuable to me and I was dumbfounded by that. But I was in a place thank God to receive it and I was like, wait a second. Even our showing up has value and I love that you're bringing that out, especially about this triad that relates to the world through the feedback of the environment is it's just bringing your authenticity to the world, just being unique. Hear that force, uniquely you, without doing anything special, you are special.
Speaker 3:I think it's important also to highlight just the giftedness and the beauty that that the differences of each triad can bring. Like when we talk about relationships, right, how you know, maybe there's a combination of someone in the gut triad with someone in the heart triad, and what is that? How does that play out? And something that the heart triad types can bring is an awareness of how we impact those around us. That does not come as naturally for those in the head or the gut triad right.
Speaker 2:The other thing I would say is, just because you're in the emotional triad in the heart space doesn't mean that you actually understand the emotions you're experiencing. Again, that takes a level of observation and self-awareness to be able to do that, and so much of our emotions in that triad are reactionary emotions.
Speaker 1:I'm glad you pointed that out, because everything we're talking about is what we came preloaded, prepackaged with, and it's like, here is this amazing, beautiful box of all of these phenomenal things. It's like, okay, we'll put it together and that's the environment that helps you with that or impedes you from that in some way. But it is not. We don't come preloaded, ready to, we don't show up adults, we're not fully cooked. As a matter of fact and I found this really fascinating when I learned this we are the only living creature animal species, whatever you want to call us that fits your fancy that comes to this world as vulnerable as we do, that then grows to be as independent as we can be. So it's.
Speaker 1:The span between birth and maturity is the largest span in the animal kingdom, and I always liken that to the fact that we were created designed for relationship and intimacy, and that dependence at birth requires that we attach to somebody, right, and and hopefully it's a caregiver and hopefully it's a loving caregiver, right. That brings us up and shows us how we work through these themes, because, like you're saying, you're a three jetty and, like you, you wouldn't characterize your, your childhood, as anything missing. Right, and we walk through, even as a parent. I'm thinking of one of my kids that I'm thinking may be a three, and it's like they perform, he performs and it's like, okay, but I don't want to make performance the only thing we talk about, and so it's being, it's having that awareness of like, okay, how do we unpack all of this, this amazing goodness? So I'm glad you, I'm glad you all brought that up.
Speaker 2:That's good. We have. A one of our children is nine and um. He happens to be a collegiate athlete and so he performs, and when he might not do as well as he would have liked my heart even though I'm not in the heart triad I want to reiterate over and over and over again that your worth and value has nothing to do with what you do on the track. It has everything to do with your inherent worth and value, made in the image of a loving God, and you are a child of God, the King of Kings, and he never has a problem with that because he's not a two three or four.
Speaker 3:Does he want to?
Speaker 2:perform well, absolutely. But his worth isn't tied to his performance.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's not that. Yeah, yeah, cool. So are we ready to move to the thinkers, the?
Speaker 2:thinkers.
Speaker 1:I think before I am. Who was that? That wasn't.
Speaker 2:Plato. Who was that? Yeah, who was that I should? Plato. Who's that? Uh, yeah, who was that I should? I probably was it. Was it aristotle? I was gonna ask, yeah I think it's aristotle.
Speaker 1:I think, therefore, I am um, yeah, yeah, I know there's billy. Eilish says it too, so I guess I'm gonna pull out all of my pop culture this there you go um it's about where it ends.
Speaker 3:I can, you can, ok. So the head center this is also known as the thinking logic reason center in the left hemisphere of the brain, is made up of the five, sixes and sevens, and so they they receive information in their thoughts first. Right there they kind of live in their head, and their core need that they prioritize is feeling safe and secure, and so that's what they're focused on, is making sure that that need is met, and they go about it in different ways, of course, and the most accessible emotion because they're focused on security and safety is then fear and anxiety. So they, like the others, they manage this fear, anxiety differently. For the fives they internalize it, they have we kind of refer to it as their like inner castle is their, their headspace. They just live there, they're in their thoughts all the time, and that is their way of managing that fear is by constantly thinking and tending to that kind of inner world.
Speaker 1:I love the analogy of the castle, because castles are so beautiful, which fives have such a beautiful mind? But castles are also cold.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and impenetrable Right.
Speaker 1:Right and and and yes, and hard and not soft and warm, and so like, like you said, impenetrable. And I'm not saying fives are, I'm saying that that brain space can be for sure it's very interesting, especially for somebody who has a child or a partner who, anyway, we'll get to that yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, um, the six is externalized. This fear, um, the sixes are uh afraid of themselves not being prepared and they're also afraid of what the world has right. So they're kind of planning for worst case scenarios, so kind of like preppers. Yes, like the nines and the threes are doing this kind of offense and defense. At the same time, sixes are also working really hard to keep that at bay, and their way of managing that is by looking outward for some sense of authority that they can trust and that that brings them this sense of security.
Speaker 1:What's so interesting about that is that the six falls in the middle of this triad, the nine falls in the middle of that triad and the three falls in the middle of that triad, and it's like they are the ones who are constantly being pulled to each direction on either side of them that those other numbers do.
Speaker 3:Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2:They utilize the gift of that intelligence center. The least of the three numbers the number that falls in the middle of that triad utilizes that intelligence center. The least of the other two fascinating yeah and do we know why?
Speaker 1:or is it just where it fell and how it was developed?
Speaker 2:My guess is they utilize it the least because of what drives them in their type. So for that nine needing that piece at all costs, they are the ones least oriented towards taking action Okay. Because they've spent all their energy just keeping everything at bay and not rocking the boat.
Speaker 1:That not rowboat, but that boat tug of war is like just so exhausting. They want to just keep it steady too.
Speaker 2:Don't send me to the rapids. And then the threes, because they're so oriented towards success and not failing they can't allow any emotions to get in the way of their productivity, and so they push those aside and they don't experience their emotions in a beneficial way. And then for the sixes, because they're so oriented towards solving the problems of the world to keep it a safe and secure place, they're constantly strategizing and planning to make sure that happens, that they overthink things, and so they're over utilizing the gift of the intellect. Rather than being at peace with their thoughts, they're constantly going. Their minds are never at rest.
Speaker 2:So, that's my guess.
Speaker 3:So then, the sevens manage that fear and anxiety by. They have a fear of their inner world, and so they externalize to avoid that essentially, and are always, always planning for the next option. Sevens have to have options because they're so scared of being trapped in the negative.
Speaker 1:Makes sense.
Speaker 2:So these people in the headspace use the future orientation of time that drives them because they are so fearful of what will be or what might be, and so they use their energy strategizing and planning and using logic and reasoning skills in order to take in that data and sort it and analyze it and come up with the best plan to mitigate anything that could cause instability, lack of security, and so that's how their energy is often used.
Speaker 1:So it almost seems like the thinking like using the left side is far more about a defense than it is about taking the world in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's true. They also don't look at the world when they're strategizing and planning through any lens of how the relational aspect comes in into it. What does that have to do with my plans? How you feel about something.
Speaker 1:It's interesting that you're saying that this comes out of the left hemisphere, because what we're finding with the whole understanding the hemispheres better is that the right is the bigger hemisphere and it is the um, the. It gives a better overview. When you're stuck in the left hemisphere, you get really my. The left hemisphere gets very myopic on things and it grabs things and it it doesn't generalize very well. The right takes it all in and generalizes. The left does have emotion, but that emotion is very tied to very myopic things, very pointed, pinpointed things, and so it's like this even before the understanding God, man. That's why, again, this is one of the fascinating things about the Enneagram is all these wrinkles as, as they are undiscovered and as we discover uh, neurology, neurochemistry, neurobiology, all that good stuff, the more we uncover it, the more it proves out a lot of the really cool things that have lasted for years and years and years and millennia, anyway, that this is very true, for that that this is called the head triad. It's myopic in fear.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes.
Speaker 1:Interesting yes.
Speaker 3:Which is why they also can tend to overthink, right this idea of overthinking and kind of perseverating on something more myopic or specific. They're going to be a little more prone to that than the other triads.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 2:I do think it's probably important to clarify that what we're talking about is our receiving the information and our experiences through a particular intelligence, but we are utilizing all three of our intelligences at all times. It's simply that one is dominant, and so it colors the way we react and engage the world. It doesn't mean that I never have emotions or use my emotions in how I am integrating, so the same for all. It simply does bear out, though, that we are weaker in a particular intelligence, that we have not allowed to develop the way the gift is supposed to be utilized. The gift is supposed to be utilized.
Speaker 1:Which makes sense because it's what our instinct is, and I was, as I'm. As you're describing this. The visual in my mind is I was watching a clip of Paul Skeens, who those of you who are not baseball fans, he is a pitcher in the MLB. A pitcher in the MLB. He pitched for uh LSU when they won the uh college world series and he, he, he is a phenom, right Like he is. He was drafted and then went one of the few that went straight into the, into the, to the big leagues, and I was watching him warm up and he's a right-handed pitcher and I watched him throw right-handed. I thought, well, that's expected. And then I watched him turn and throw left-handed.
Speaker 1:Now, what I know about him and I knew I kind of knew that this was his approach because the guy can go. He went in one of the college world series games he threw, went in one of the college world series games he threw I don't know, maybe 80, 90, a hundred pitches, and he was still hitting triple digits in the in in that I have a pitch count and was injury free. At least that was my understanding. He was injury free why? Because he was balanced and I knew that his approach to his throwing was always balanced. It was not right side dominant I mean, I shouldn't say that it is right side dominant. However, it's always bringing in the left side to balance things out.
Speaker 1:And I love that you're saying this because, as I'm thinking, I'm a seven and so, as I'm thinking through these things, I'm like, yes, like I do think through a lot of things, but I really perceive the world. The world does come to me through perceptions and feelings and experiences, and I do sense my way through things, but I do also have a lot of ways that, OK, now that I feel this, now what am I going to do? And so there's a lot of thinking that goes through that.
Speaker 1:And I have a lot of feelings too.
Speaker 3:I have a whole lot of feelings.
Speaker 2:So it does show up, like we do show up in all three. That's correct. You will find, though, people in the headspace the fives, sixes and sevens is they will often, rather than feel their emotions, they will think about their emotions, and so the response is often, when you ask somebody how they feel, they'll often say, well, I think, and then fill in the blank.
Speaker 1:That makes sense. That's one of the things that I think you know. I was drawn to this theory called CBASP it's Cognitive Behavior, behavioral analysis, systems of psychotherapy and one of the things that drew me to it was that it is a very interpersonal experiential theory, because my tendency would be to get lost in talking about how a person experiences the world. What I realize is that we really need to experience it. I'm convinced that's why Jesus spoke in parables, I think in analogies, because it helps me understand the world, because then I can experience it and it's more meaningful. And it's that moving outside of the head and moving into the experience, I think, is that that's been a very powerful thing for me.
Speaker 1:And that's very cool and it's funny because, as I sit here and think about this, we are all three in the different triads.
Speaker 2:Yes, we're representing them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, look at us represent, that's right.
Speaker 2:I like that. I mean think about also when you're I mean any relationship you have. If you understand which center of intelligence is their dominant, you actually can use your own intelligence to try to come alongside of them and communicate differently, help solve problems differently Even you guys as counselors how your patient is able receiving the information that you're giving them in a session, if they've got a lot of inertia to any kind of doing, or if they are very emotionally reactive and whatever it may be. Understanding that and helping them learn how to in some ways disconnect from what's natural to them and learn to utilize skills to elevate the other intelligence centers so they can see in a more balanced way what's going on in their world. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes so much sense because you think about, like, just from a physical perspective, you know, if's, if you're right, right, dominant, it's great to brush your teeth right, we can all agree on that. But it's great to brush your teeth with your non-dominant hand because in all that it does for you neurologically Right. And so I remember when I I hurt my shoulder, I tore things up and couldn't throw a ball. If I threw it, I had no control over where it went. And throwing batting practice for my son and his teammates when they were younger, they all just knew, well, this guy's going to hit me with the baseball. And I was always like, sorry, guys, I have a 50-50 shot of where it's going to go. And I thought to myself, wait, instead of being that guy that's always going to hit the batter, why not learn to throw with your left hand? And it was funny because the boys were really encouraging as I did that, because they all laughed, because it had to be so by the book, right, and I felt like doing that caused me to be more balanced.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I think about, like, what you're saying is, can we do those things that give us more balance emotionally?
Speaker 1:Because I think we were given the physical as a means of understanding the metaphysical, and I think that understanding the metaphysical in that way, it's, it's, it's. It's such an open opportunity to say if, if, if fear is what drives you and you're trying to make sense of it, it's like, okay, rather than having a future orientation, can I practice my sense of mindfulness, of having a present orientation, and could this be a moment that I feel like is, as I like to call them, these are Python moments, where it's like, hey, I'm going to be squeezed here and I don't like it, it's uncomfortable, but can I make peace and can I find something potentially enjoyable about it in that, in that present moment, so that I can then move through it without pretending it's not there, you know? And then there's not that tug of war of like okay, I have to be in reality, but reality sucks. So let's get rid of reality, let's repaint it, and it's like, no, let's experience reality. And what inside of reality can I make peace with?
Speaker 2:Yes, that's good.
Speaker 3:That is good and it's the only way through it, right? And I think it's always important, when you understand your dominant center, to then understand kind of that stacking order, so that instead of this concept of you know I need to lessen how much I rely on my dominant center. Why don't we focus more on elevating what's repressed, so being in the head space, kind of like you were just saying, instead of get out of my head, let's focus more on your body and your sensation, like what am I physically experiencing right now, to more elevate kind of that primal or gut center.
Speaker 2:And we get so set in our ways that most of us simply stay stuck in the rut that we've forged our whole life. Right. You know, for the headspace, they don't often want to deal with people, with emotions, because emotions are messy. Well, data and information, that's clean cut. You know, math is what it is right. So it's just more comfortable that for them to see life as that problem to be solved, rather than the relationships that bring with it inherent messiness right um so, but it all.
Speaker 1:All of them are so important they are and you look at the uniqueness that makes up the whole and I think one of the things I think we talked about last time you all were here is that the older you get, the more elusive your number becomes. Well, I should say, the healthier you get, the more elusive your number becomes, because you can move through the world with much more flexibility, and I would imagine that the more healthy you get, the more elusive that triad becomes, because you have that ability to throw. I mean, look I, was I good at throwing with my left hand? No, was I? Well, was I great at throwing with my left hand? No, was I good enough? Yes, throwing with my left hand? No, was I good enough?
Speaker 1:Yes, cause I kept working on it and I found a way for it to be enjoyable, because all the mechanics were funny to me, written reverse, and so I found humor in it and I, I it was. It was an enjoyable experience, right, and so we will know that we are head dominant or gut dominant or heart dominant, but that doesn't mean that we can't move through. That, I think, is to your point.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely. And the healthier we are. We are partners in our development. We're not bystanders. We have to participate in the process in order to bring about the growth and transformation, and so, when we're in relationships with our spouse, our children, our co-workers, it's super important to really have a level of awareness that will allow us to grow into and utilize the different centers of intelligence, as well as the strengths from the different types. We don't have to stay stuck in a number. None of us are a number. We're all a unique individual but we all can identify with the characteristics and the motivations of that number, and so we can either choose to just throw our hands up and go well, that's who I am, accept it, or not, or we can say wait, our greatest command is to love with all of our heart, with all of our mind, with all of our strength this is the three intelligence centers with all of our soul.
Speaker 1:You know, right, right, yeah. And what's what's so interesting about that to me is like you're talking about how that hits all of them. And then I'm thinking about okay, wait, I know where I go in stress, and that's the. I leave my intelligence triad and I move into another space. And so that's the beauty and the complexity of because I know that you know eights go to two in stress. And so it's like okay, wait, you're leaving your gut and going to your, to your uh, five in stress.
Speaker 2:Oh, eights go to five in stress, we go to two and health Okay, and so it's like that's.
Speaker 1:my curiosity is is that I seven goes to five in health, so that's staying in the head triad.
Speaker 2:That's right. But the one right Is going into the gut, but you miss the heart Exactly, so you have to work harder for it.
Speaker 1:That's funny, yeah, so do so when we think about the, not the winging. What is it called the arrows? So when we think about those arrows and for those of you who may be new to the Enneagram, those arrows are that, and this is what this is. Honestly. What got me with the Enneagram is that I remember I had a mentor who said take this little personality quiz so that I can know you better. And I took the little quiz and he was like this doesn't make sense. You broke the test. I was like what do you mean? I broke the test kind of made me mad and I see I'm in my, I'm in my gut triad now, and so it kind of, but it did, it frustrated me and I'm like what do you mean? I broke it. He said, well, you're sanguine, which in that was the the more describing the seven you're, you know, like the Labrador is, but you're also melancholy, and those two things don't go together. And I was like, okay, well, I was in finals, I was in all of like having exams I was had to do, I was writing a big paper or something when I took that questionnaire and I was stressed, and so of course, both sides of that showed up and that was the.
Speaker 1:This, the Enneagram, was the only personality explanation that said, when you are stressed, you leave this fun. Stress that's where you have the tendency to go is a really unhealthy critical place. You can either criticize yourself or you can externalize that and criticize others. For me it's an internal thing, but it that's what grabbed me, and so those of you listening who maybe don't understand all that and who've made it through all of this, that's what the, that's what the arrows are is where you go in stress or where you go in health. And so do all of these, um, do all of those movements. They don't all leave their, their triad, so you don't touch all of them.
Speaker 2:That is correct. Most of them do have access to all three, but not all of them. The seven does not, the five does not, Um and the four does not. The five does not and the four does not.
Speaker 3:Because you're all special Right.
Speaker 2:But the three, sixes and nines obviously are in the three triads. The eights have access to all three, the twos have access to no, the twos don't have access to the gut. But the other thing are. Then you bring in the wings, the numbers on either side of you.
Speaker 2:So let's say a two, they have an access to the one wing, so that is the gut triad space and the fives can access the four space, but the eights I mean the sevens over there they don't have a wing that accesses the heart space and the fours don't have access to the headspace.
Speaker 1:Well, no, they do, because for the five, yeah yeah, okay, this is mind-bending all the arrows, so okay. So now we know about these centers of intelligence. We know that there's three. That's why they're called a triad I'm using my head you like that um, and so we, we, we move through the world, we ingest the world in a in a particular way. We have a dominant throwing arm, we have the opportunity based on where we fall in those triads to utilize other aspects that we.
Speaker 1:That may be, maybe we may be ambidextrous. Let's put it that way.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And then there's some of us we won't mention who that have to work harder to to access these other spaces. So in thinking about relationships are there numbers that or triads are places on the, the, diagram. This, yeah, would it be called a circle? We don't call it a circle.
Speaker 2:Well, there's a circle there and there's the nine pointed diagram. Okay, we'll call it the diagram.
Speaker 1:Is there a? Is there a number on the diagram that is least compatible with another number?
Speaker 2:That's a question that is asked a lot and I would say the main there are particular types that would have more challenges with each other than others, Like a four and a seven could have challenges because the four can be so expressive and feel the whole range of emotions so deeply that it can be exhausting for a seven who really just wants to have fun and experience all kinds of things, to keep pain away, where the four can sit in that pain for a long, long time. And the four struggle so much with their own self-worth and the seven typically really kind of likes himself and they like life and so they don't have these struggles with depression and angst and I mean they can if they were willing to feel some of that. But because they're so adept at pushing any negative things aside, they're just trying to experience the world in a myriad of different ways that bring positivity where the fours. They don't see the world that way, so that can be a challenge.
Speaker 3:But really the short answer to your question is there's not two numbers that are most compatible or least compatible and you know, for those that maybe are considering you know who they might end up with I would say it's not so important to focus on what their Enneagram type is. It's really your level of health that's going to determine your compatibility.
Speaker 1:That's a really good way to say that, Because my next question was going to be is there a number that you think is just genuinely more compatible?
Speaker 2:number that you think is just genuinely more compatible. Well, nines are probably the easiest to get along with because they are so go with the flow type of people. They don't tend to make a lot of demands and so in general they really are easy people to be with and people like them because of that. But if you live with the nine, you start to see the weakness of their stance and their position, because they can be so stubborn that they won't budge. Stubborn that they're, they won't budge, it doesn't matter how many tow trucks you attach to them.
Speaker 2:They're going to just stay where they are and you're not changing them because it's an internal position of no, I'm not letting anybody control me. Cause again for the nine, it's about power and control. So so, um, did I answer that question? Yeah, I think you did.
Speaker 1:I because I think at the, at the core of it, it's it's like what you said, jetty. It's like don't look for, oh, I'm a pisces. So therefore I'm more compatible with a capricorn, it's not like that this is more about.
Speaker 1:This is one of the things I love about this as well and I love that you all approach it this way is that it's really the core is knowing how you've been uniquely designed, knowing what your strengths and your unrecognized strengths are also known as weaknesses like knowing how to to come along and be more fully who you were designed to be and move through the world more authentically. And when you are authentic and you encounter somebody who's working to be authentic, then you can see if your two authentic selves are compatible. And that, to me, is and I've done a lot of work, a lot of research All of my my research has been in this area of intrapersonal understanding, meaning understanding self, so that you have I always kind of jokingly say you have a me to bring to we, and bringing the me to we is interpersonal, and so it's we got to ego, not out of your essence in order to love another person and serve another person and submit mutually out of love to another person.
Speaker 2:And I can kind of give you an example. My husband and I were driving to Dallas the other day and he was driving, and I would say it probably works better when I'm driving because I like to be in control and I have to work really, really hard at not asking him why he's in the lane he's in when the other lane is moving so much faster. And that takes a lot of restraint for me because I'm all about now doing it, now doing it as quick as possible, and as efficient as yeah and so it just it kind of unnerves me and I'll sometimes just go.
Speaker 2:This is ridiculous, dana, this has nothing to do with his innate essence or mine right and to be willing, I sometimes just close my eyes and then other times I'll ask the question you don't like that lane over there.
Speaker 1:Well, that's good. I mean, at least you're not saying hey, move over there, turn here. Do that, because I would imagine that a three would ingest that to mean I'm not performing well, right? Therefore, oh, you think I am a bad driver? Not, you're looking for the fastest way to get there. It's, I am failing you.
Speaker 2:Which makes it personal. Right, yes, right yes.
Speaker 1:And I think that's the beauty of understanding these themes themes and things is that it gives us a platform through which, or by which, to understand not only us, but how we may be showing up for somebody else.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And what a gift of consideration when you close your eyes, as long as it's not taking from you. Yeah, because we don't want to again the heart triad. Don't overlook yourself to care for somebody else. Right, really, any triad, absolutely. Don't overlook yourself to care for somebody else, really any triad, absolutely. Don't overlook yourself. To care for somebody else and understanding yourself. Is this something that I really need to climb the hill over?
Speaker 2:Yeah, because it goes back to the motive. Why are you sensing, feeling, thinking the way you are? Right? What's really driving that? And that's the observation of self, right, yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, this has been amazing. One more small well, this is a big wrinkle, but one more wrinkle of the Enneagram being illuminated to our listeners, and this is. I know this has been fun for me and I'm sure you're shocked, but I know this has been fun for me and I really appreciate you all taking the time to come and sit down with me and really help make sense out of this. The Enneagram is super complex, but I think it's complex because it illuminates or elucidates the complexity of who God has made us to be, which is, I think, the beauty of it. So, thank you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I agree, this has been so fun for us. Thank you for having us. I think, just to kind of wrap up what we talked about with the centers of intelligence, it kind of is a reminder that others aren't ever thinking about you in the way that you think they are, and that's not personal.
Speaker 1:That is so well said.
Speaker 2:That's super important to know that about the heart people, the twos, threes and fours, okay.
Speaker 2:And I can give you another example. Sorry it's so personal, but like, if I get sick or I need assistance with my health, for some reason my husband's the most amazing caregiver because he is connecting the relationship to the care for another person. I, on the other hand, if he gets sick, I'm so about autonomy that my reaction is to give him space and just check on him once in a while and I mean I'll tend to what he needs, but I'm not there just doting on him and seeing how things are going. It is like, oh, no, no, no, no, I want to give you space, you sleep. You know, he wants me doting on him. Oh yeah, because it's about the relationship. Right, he wants me doting on him because it's about the relationship and so knowing the difference from where we're receiving the world and perceiving that and integrating that, it's really important to understand that so we can be more present, not just to ourselves but to our loved ones and meeting their needs and knowing how to ask for that.
Speaker 1:Because I am somebody who really I like, I like touch from my wife and she is not a touchy person and she but she is an acts of service type person. And so if I walk past the trash and it's full and I just push it down and close the drawer, it's like what, why aren't you caring for me in this way? It's like because taking out the trash she didn't care for you, but it is for her, right. And so learning that very early on in our marriage was a very it was a very interesting process for us to walk through. And it's, you know, at this point I may be driving along and I'll say, hey, please, like, could you just touch me? And she's like, oh, yeah, yeah. And she puts her hand on my back.
Speaker 1:I'm like that's all I needed, right, and it's that it's the willingness to ask for it, knowing that that's what I need and her willingness to give it, knowing that's what I need. And for me, walking past the trash and saying, okay, yes, I'm going to take that out preemptively, without her asking, because I want, I'm thinking about her and I want to serve her that way. Or if she says, hey, could you take the trash out? I was like, yes, that's my way of serving and loving her and it's it's uncovering all of that and that's what I love about this.
Speaker 2:So yeah, those love languages are so important too, to know those. And then do it that with that understanding. One final thing I would say that is important for us as parents to know those and then do it that with that understanding. One final thing I would say that is important for us as parents to know and our job as parents is pretty much over. We just get to be grandparents now.
Speaker 2:But when parents are in two different triads but they're in the triads that have a repressed center, they are not going to necessarily be as attentive to their children in that repressed center. So my husband and I are in the head and gut center no, I'm sorry, he's in the heart and I'm in the gut center and because he's in the middle of that center, as a three, those emotions are repressed. As an eight, my emotions are repressed. So being sensitive to our children who are in the emotional triad is something that if we knew this back then, we could have been more aware of it. Knew this back then we could have been more aware of it. But not knowing it, I think there are things that really were lacking, because we maybe weren't as attentive to the emotional intelligence, especially when you are processing something through. Why are you being so reactionary to this? Just you know, are you? Yes, fall down, you get hurt. I'm going to hug you, but then we're going to rub some dirt on it and you're going to move on.
Speaker 3:Yeah, do you have anything to say on that? No, I think that's a great point and again kind of opens a whole nother can of worms when you think about. You know how this shows up in a family dynamic and with parenting and understanding where your kids might be. So I think it's just helpful to be aware of and we're not going to move effectively interpersonally if we have not done the work internally right. Very well said.
Speaker 1:Very well said. Thank you, ladies. Thank you, this was a blast. So much fun. Thank you, ladies.
Speaker 2:Thank you. This was a blast, so much fun. Thank you.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:If you found value in our discussion and wish to uncover more about the fascinating world of mental wellness, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Stay tuned for our upcoming episodes, where Dr Long will continue to delve into empowering therapies and strategies for mental wellness. Your journey to understanding and embracing mental health is just beginning and we're excited to have you with us every step of the. Thank you.
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