Restoration Beyond the Couch
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Restoration Beyond the Couch
Managing Grief
In this episode of Restoration Beyond the Couch, Dr. Lee Long sits down with counselor Mark Foster to talk about the process of managing grief. Together, they explore what grief can look like, how it shows up in daily life, and healthy ways to navigate the pain of loss. Whether you're grieving now or supporting someone who is, this conversation offers practical guidance and hope.
Welcome to Restoration Beyond the Couch. I'm Dr Lee Long and today I'm joined by Mark Foster, a therapist, here at Restoration. In this episode, we're having an honest conversation about grief, the reality behind moving on, the myths that keep us stuck and the transformative truth that grief isn't something to overcome but something to learn to carry with grace and wisdom. Whether you're walking through your own grief, supporting someone you love through loss, or helping your community heal from collective trauma, this episode offers practical strategies for navigating grief as a pathway to deeper connection, meaning, ultimately, restored freedom. Your path to mental wellness starts here. Well, welcome, mark Foster.
Speaker 1:About the concept of grief and about just the heaviness of it, but also the acceptance of it and the way through it, and I know you've been a therapist for three decades, or more and you've worked with a lot of families and a lot of people who've walked through some really hard times, so I'm glad you're here with us today.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you lot of people who've walked through some really hard times, so I'm glad you're here with us today. Oh, thank you. I'm glad to be here too and not a fun thing to talk about, but necessary yeah yeah, it's.
Speaker 1:it's interesting, though, to think about like grief and how we expect like that. Like the, the dsm-5, the diagnostic statisticalth edition, says grief is supposed to resolve in six months. Right, I don't know what your take is on that, but, man, mine, I don't know that grief resolves in six months, right? I mean, I remember, I mean you know this, but I lost my parents, both of them probably 18, almost 19 years ago now, five weeks to the day apart, and I remember my mom died first, and she's such a sweet lady came in, she was the hospice social worker. And she came in and she said I don't know what to say to you guys. I'm sorry that you lost your mom. And she said a few things and thought yeah, yeah, yeah, grief, grief, grief, right.
Speaker 1:And then my dad died, literally again five weeks to the day, yeah. And she walked in and she said I don't know what to say to you. She said this is a lot and it's overwhelming, yeah, and it was kind of like charlie brown teacher, like wah, wah, wah, wah. But then she said something. She said I want to leave you guys a lot and it's overwhelming.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it was kind of like Charlie Brown teacher, like wah, wah, wah, wah. But then she said something. She said I want to leave you guys with this. She said grief is like a blanket. She said it is going to for a period of time it is going to live over you.
Speaker 1:And she said at some point you're going to be able to stand up and you're going to fold the blanket, but you're not ever going to be able to throw the blanket out. Wow, she said you'll put the blanket on the shelf and at times you're going to need to take the blanket down and sometimes you're going to need, to your life, a tent under the blanket. And it was one of the most powerful things and I remember just stopping saying I'll never forget that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And when I think about our field, saying grief is supposed to resolve within six months, I often wonder if they mean you're not going to live in the tent of the blanket.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:For six months.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But I'll tell you, you know, like I said almost 19 years in this past Christmas, for whatever reason, I needed that blanket sometimes. Yeah, you know, yeah, so I don't know what's your take.
Speaker 2:I agree, I think it's a great illustration or picture. Yeah, maybe the DSM is saying you'll fold it in six months.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:If you're fortunate, but I don't think that can ever be hard and fast.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because people go through this at their own pace, in their own way and it is always going to be there.
Speaker 2:I lost my dad over a year ago and I'm still having times where it hits me and I need to experience that. I know it's kind of maybe jumping ahead of the way it goes, but just to say something I realized just this week about it that the realization of my dad now like where I believe he is and the perfected state he's in, helps me look back on who he was in my past and I can see those good things with dignity and I can look at them without any incrimination and go. That was a bit of the picture that I know you're just completed in now and it helps me honor those things and not ignore them because of the things he did that weren't a part of the picture that he is now but it just let me honor that. And sometimes I've thought people, when they are grieving and they lose somebody, that they deify that person. Yes, they make them a saint. I'm like, no, I remember they weren't really.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean right, like I remember. There's plenty of stories I can say, boy, that's a dad issue or that was a mom thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and but what it's helped me do is to say yeah, that was true and so was this, and I can see that now with more joy and honoring and fullness, without any kind of lingering. Yeah, but you know, it's just a yeah, it was and it is and it will be just something. So it kind of goes back and forth from the picture I know where he is now to the picture where he was then and where that is in me right now and it really helps me right now?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it really helps me move forward with hope. So it's not. So it's not overlooking, no, who he is and who he was. No, it's accepting that and saying, yeah, at times you had grief. I mean, we both had grief in their lifetime that they inflicted but it's it's. It's honoring the completion that you know he's operating in. That's right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think I think it's important to to know that grief evolves. You know, and I think that's what the blanket analogy was, a grief will evolve. It does not come to an end absolutely. And I know, um, I know one of the things that, man, both of us have sat with parents who have lost their children.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when grief gets out of order, yeah when loss maybe it's not grief gets out of order, but loss is out of order, like that's not the design, right? The design is that as a parent, you outlive your kid, but in the brutal, unfortunate time that that isn't the case, it feels it is out of order.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I know that one of the things that I've sat with parents who have had that unfortunate miss or misordered event that one of the things that they stick with is is I don't want to move on. I don't want to move on because I feel like I'm going to leave them behind. Have you, have you had that same experience?
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely, I know it, but I don't want to go there. I don't want to, and it's not moving on without them, it's moving on with those things like we were talking about, just now with the honoring of them I always kind of talk about that with them is tell me about them, tell me about what they were like, what the good times, what made you laugh and I've had part of grief is remembering that and crying and laughing right at the same time yeah, you know I love that.
Speaker 1:I I always tell parents you're not moving on because you can't. No, but you're moving with that's right because they're not defined by that one. No ill-fated day no, that they were taken from your presence right, but instead it's you're moving with where they currently are.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm, yeah, and that changes us. Yeah, I mean there's a huge change in their absence and the impact of that on us, mm-hmm, and we move forward with that and I do think, as Christians who know where they are, it is a huge blessing to know that I am moving with you where you are, huge blessing to know that I am moving with you where you are. Almost everybody, christian or not, that I have talked to will tell me. I think I felt their presence yesterday, or it's almost as if maybe I did hear them say something to me and I used to in my younger days, poo-poo that I mean, that's a technical term, poo-poo, of course it is Thank you, but I don't now, man, I think maybe, having gone through with families and friends, and then my own, it's no, I really do believe that there is a sense of and a reality of that presence with us.
Speaker 1:It's not made up. I can't tell you how many parents I have heard tell a very similar story of. I mean, I remember one father who lost his children, his children, and he said, you know, I was working on something in my office, I was in a conference room, and he said, all of a sudden I felt one of my kids basically come to me and audibly say, dad, I'm good and I need to know you are too. And it was a moment for him, wow, and I think the I didn't expect to be impacted like this, Because he he cried through the whole thing and I cried with him through the whole thing because it's so out of order and for him to have that gift, that experience, yeah, absolutely, it was so profound and it was such a moment of normalizing for him, like you said, that there may be those moments, yeah, and not to technically poo-poo them, but to really embrace them and enjoy them, that they're a gift that's right that's right, you know that's right, but it's, I think you're right and I think it's.
Speaker 1:That was a moment for him where he could move with.
Speaker 2:That's right, that's right.
Speaker 1:Because there was that space of you know, I know you're okay, and people may say you know, rash like people who consider themselves like logical thinkers may say, oh well, that just was a moment that your mind created. And here's my statement to that is okay so what If it brought you peace and it's not destroying anybody else or taking anything from anybody else, why does it matter? And so what a beautiful experience for people to have.
Speaker 2:I got to share one. Now, come on. I was cleaning out my parents' house after dad died and I was going through his clothes my dad's very meticulous to be generous, it's very meticulous to be generous and I literally came down to the last pair of pants and I thought, man, I just wish that there was. Oh man, I'm going to cry. I wish there was something here. That was just. I could remember him by. And I literally heard look in the pocket. I looked in that pocket and there was his silver dollar that he carried with him every day. I wish I could pull it out now and show you that I have it, but I don't. I don't wear it, I don't put it in the pocket so it might fall out, because I don't want to lose that sucker. It's, it's in my nightstand, you know. But I just thought how did I hear that? How did I know that pocket, that pair of pants? That was either God or my dad, I'm not sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, either way it's comfort.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Either way, it's the allowing to move on it's like losing a body part yeah you know it's like you. You can learn to function without a leg, but you, you will always remember, you will always have that with you. That's right, you know. I know that, as we grieve it like, it's certainly not a linear pattern, I know there's you know, we have the five stages of grief right the denial, the anger, the bargaining, the depression, the acceptance. Which is what's interesting about those five is those were observations of dying patients.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Not the um, the survivors who are grieving, but I, I think they, I do think that a lot of that does apply. Yeah, and it's there, it's. It's not like a timeline that you're gonna, you know metic know meticulously go through each of them no. But it's like a, it's like a weather pattern.
Speaker 2:That's good.
Speaker 1:You know it may be raining at lunch, like you may be in denial at lunch and acceptance at dinner, and then you may go back to bargaining and then you may go to depression and you may go right.
Speaker 2:Yep, and you know, if you walk through this with you know yourself or your family or people that like we get to do that with you. Do see that that there are seasons where they're really doing well, they've really moved with this, they're really seemingly going forward, and then they hit something. You don't even know. Sometimes if they hit anything you can identify but they're back into maybe the bargaining part Right and they're really stuck there for a while. And with couples, especially when the death is out of order, when it's a child, we both know it's a high probability of they aren't going to make it, but they can if they'll go through it themselves and with their mate, and that bargaining place is the place where I find a lot of difficulties with that.
Speaker 2:I'm blaming myself as a failure, and I know you are too, and the other one might be going no, it's not even on my mind. But I, you know, and it's that attempt, for I want to make sense. I might blame God, I might blame me, I might blame my mate. Right, and I know it's called the bargaining, but I call it the blaming.
Speaker 1:I think that's right and I think it's critical for us to make sure that we all understand your timeline is yours, that's right. And I think that's the difficulty in a marriage, because my timeline is mine and your partner's timeline is theirs, and our timelines may not match up and it's like how do we find that rhythm again?
Speaker 1:as partners, as couples, as spouses or whatever you want to call it. How do I find that pattern, that rhythm? Again, Because it is asynchronous, like it's not we, we don't know how to synchronize it. That's right, and I think you're, I think you're right, it's a it, it, it it. One of the I don't, I don't want to say crazy things, but it feels crazy. Is that that angst?
Speaker 1:It's like if, if you're not in my part of the timeline it's that pain of having to sit where I am in my timeline and not push you or move you to to where I feel like you need to be. Oh my gosh, yeah, to where I feel like you need to be.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, yeah, you do. Yeah, and it's almost helpful that we're not in the same place, because when you're there and I'm not, I can be there for you to help you move through that better. But if we're both there then, man, that can be really difficult. I remember the first time I sat through grief was with a teenager and, yeah, lost his parent and I didn't want to be there and somebody said, well, you're the minister, it's your job, so you got to go. And I remember I went in that day and I sat and I can see that little room it was the dining room Sitting around a little table and I was there for four hours. I said, hello, I ate the piece of chocolate cake. I said, well, I think I'm going to go. And I got up and I left Four hours later, four hours later.
Speaker 2:And I watched everybody come in and say things. And a lot of things we say are just, you know, some are helpful but, like you said, you know that precious lady gave you a great visual. But a lot of people come in and say stuff You're like that doesn't help and I've had people tell me that.
Speaker 1:And I think that's right. I mean, I remember standing in the receiving line with my siblings after my father passed. So now we are without both parents and you know it was so sorry for your loss. Well, you know they're in a better place and I'm like, yeah, I kind of don't care.
Speaker 2:Yeah right.
Speaker 1:I'd really rather have them right here with me, absolutely. And it's like, well, you know, all things work for good. And you're like, well, you know, all things work for good. And you're like, yeah, screw you. And I'll never forget one of my dad's really close friends he, you know, sorry for your loss and I'm the youngest, and so I was the last that he greeted and he looked at me because I was so young. He looked at me and he said this isn't fair. And I was like and he said this is.
Speaker 2:BS.
Speaker 1:And he said not bad stuff. But he said the whole thing, not Bible study, no. And he said I'm just so angry for you. Yeah, and his wife was like slapping him going stop it.
Speaker 1:This is not okay, and I looked at her and I said no, this is the first honest conversation I've had today Like thank you, right, because it sucks and it's not fair. Yeah, and I don't want to be 30 something and dealing with the fact that I've lost my parents. That's right, and I think we get so afraid fact that I've lost my parents. That's right and I think we get so afraid to call a spade a spade when these parents lose their kids.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not fair, it's not right. No, it sucks and there's nothing we can do to take it away that's right, except for just sit there.
Speaker 2:that's that's it. That's my story with that teenager. I thought I was like man. I stunk as a minister, but I knew I didn't know what to say so I wasn't going to say something that wouldn't be helpful. He came back to youth group two months later and gave his testimony and said I wouldn't have made it through that day if it wasn't for Mark, and I was like I didn't do anything, but I did. He could feel that I was feeling what he for Mark and I was like I didn't do anything, but I did.
Speaker 2:He could feel that I was feeling what he felt. Yeah, he knew I cared. He knew that I didn't know what to say. And that didn't matter, because he didn't know what to say, right, he was just suffering and I was just sitting there with him.
Speaker 1:There's no sense you can make out of it. No, there just isn't.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:I remember sitting with a couple again, they'd lost a child, yeah, a child, and it had been longer than six months, yeah, and I remember the husband looking at the wife saying, look, I'm ready for us to move on Like, I'm ready for us to make a good life now for each other. And his sentiment was kind and, but his message, his message, was good. His method was so strong, though, and she needed some extra time and needed to sort through some of these things.
Speaker 1:And when he finally realized how she was seeing it, like his impact, because his intent, like I was saying, his intent was good, but his but his impact was brutal. She would finally describe it as it's like a two by four in my face and he was like Whoa, no, I don't mean that at all. And as we worked through it, he was like I just don't want to lose you too.
Speaker 2:And I was like I just don't want to lose you too, and I was like that's a good message, that is Now, that's a good intent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, now let's make your impact match that intent.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:And then he would just say what he wanted for her. I want for you to be able to hold this grief in a way that it doesn't take you away from the rest of us. Yes, and I think that's a genuine desire, right, but it's that's a hard one to do, because the question really was how do I honor my kid's passing while still living fully? That was what he wanted and she was like I don't know how to live without having that role, and it really was trying to redefine that for her. Wow.
Speaker 2:How hard would that be? That isn't going to happen quickly or easily, no, and you don't have to figure it all out. You just go through it with them. The irony is, I mean, the husband had a good intent, but to push would be to lose. That would make him lose her.
Speaker 1:She has to go through this. He was. That's why they showed up on the couch Right. You know, one of the things that we worked with them on is, you know, like you said, honoring that memory Like you were talking about with the people you sit with. It's like remind me again, tell me about them, like I want to walk out of here, having known that child, you know, and giving space to those things.
Speaker 2:And that is just so much of it. Yes, I see where he is or she is now and that helps me move forward with this in a different way and I can see that reflection back again to what I saw in him or her as a child and I carry that with me as I go forward and I don't forget that. You know, it's like that blanket thing you said I think I'm aware of it. I'm never.
Speaker 2:You know, nobody is ever going to be completely resolved and I'm not ever going to be the same. I'm changed by this. I'm not redefined by it. I'm still me, but I am changed. I am impacted in a way that I am different. From now on, I can go on with that, but don't expect me to be the same. I've got to find a new way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there has to be an acknowledgement to that. Yeah, yeah, you know people say, oh, I wish it could be what it was and it's like, yeah, it's never going to be. No, and I've seen parents continue to live a meaningful life and not dishonor. So let me say that in the positive I've seen parents go on and live a meaningful life and honor that child that they lost.
Speaker 2:I had one dad who lost his daughter. Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1:Sometimes what we do is hard.
Speaker 2:You know, I just was thinking that I think lots of things are hard that we do, but I think this one is the hardest.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a different cry, yeah, there's a different guttural place that you sit with, yeah, and it's like you go back to that and it's like that is so familiar. And I just remember he came in and said I'm a lost cause, I can't keep living and walking through that and saying let's just stay right where you are and let's sort through that and we'll make meaning of it, but it's never going to go away.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:And he learned to, to live with, to move with that grief, and he found things that they shared, that they loved and connected over. Yeah, and he did those things, that's right. And he was like that's my way of connecting with her, that's right. And he even began to find joy in those things and greater meaning in those things and it was a really beautiful. It was really beautiful and honor. What an honor it was to walk with him in that, to find those meaningful places, yeah, yeah, to meet, to meet her, so to speak.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, you know, I've. I've even seen parents develop ministries out of the loss you know, and that's, that's good, but it's, it's gotta be.
Speaker 2:I mean, I've I've seen where one person wanted it to be a ministry and the other one was doing what you said. It's like I'm not ready, I'm not, I'm not there, I can't, I can't let go, I can't move forward that fast and I can't make it something else. That's not where I'm finding meaning yet, and I think, even when you're making meaning out of it into some kind of new experience which is important to move forward, it's more of an inclusion than a replacement, right, than a replacement Right. I'm going forward in this new way, with this experience, and I want you to know about this person, right, and we're going to do this together and I'm sharing it with you and I enjoyed it with them and I want to enjoy it with you and I'm having kind of both of those experiences as we do it. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you know my kids weren't well. There were only two of them on the ground. They were very little, and one of them that never met my parents, and one of the things that I've tried to do is say, oh man, your grandparents would love to have known this about you, or I wish you could have known them in this way, and it's interesting. At times I'll hear them say, oh, this would have been really cool for Papa, or this would have been really cool for grandma, or this would have been.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean, and so that that's always meaningful to me is like they live on you know, and it's like that growth, that, as we call it in our field, post-traumatic growth, right Cause you know you have post-traumatic stress or PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder, and there's also PTG like post-traumatic growth. We should put that in there, traumatic growth, we should put that in there. But that can coexist, like again, it's not moving on without them, no, it's moving with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I once worked with just somebody who'd lost his spouse and they were well-connected, had a lot of friends, and the friends came over that next week because that was their regular time to meet. Oh wow, I know. I was like, were you ready for that? And he goes, I didn't know. So when they came over they weren't telling me what I had heard from other people, like I'm so sorry for your loss. They were telling me, you know, I remember this about her and this doing this reminds me of how she would have wanted this and that was her favorite dish and I know she would be laughing right over there in that chair and that was. That was a lot for him. And yet he said that was so healing for him because I I recognize she was going on not just with me.
Speaker 1:So healing for him because I I recognized she was going on not just with me, but with them, right, and we were in this together right, and it's knowing that that impact right, like knowing that that legacy doesn't just, like it's not all the weight's not all on you to carry it on.
Speaker 2:No, can't be. It's too much, yeah, that's yeah, yeah, why we need each other, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Man, I think what's so funny is I've known you for I don't know more than 20 years, yeah, and I can probably think of a time. I'm trying to think of the times you and I have sat around and cried about something. Yeah, I think we could count them on, maybe one or two, and it's like thinking about this. It's like, you know, grief is painful, yeah, like it is like creating space for people to walk through these things. Yeah, um, but it's also, I don't know. It doesn't, doesn't. It doesn't have to all be the negatives. Like you said about this, this guy who, who is his group, came over and they sat around and they laughed and they remembered her, and that's honoring as well. That's right, you know, um, and like you said, it's it's okay to say I'm not ready for that yet.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know, I, one of my sisters, lost her first husband just out of the blue. Yeah, and I just thought what can I do? You know, to, to, to play a part in the healing of this. You know, and I remember I was like I said to myself okay, you're going to call her every morning and you're going to say, all right, how'd you sleep? What's on your day to day? And, and you know, just talk to me about you and where you are. And it was a ritual for a long time, man, you know, and and that's been many, you know, many years ago, Gosh, like maybe 15 years ago. That's awesome, but you know, that was our way, my way of trying to contribute.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I never really asked her if that was a good thing for her. I'm sure it was I'm joking. If that was a good, thing for her.
Speaker 2:I'm sure it was.
Speaker 1:I'm joking.
Speaker 2:So you know, like everybody, you know that moving forward and having support is so crucial. I'll hear a joke and I can't believe how many times, you know, my dad and I had the same sense of humor. Yeah, you did. That was a way to connect. I'll read a joke and I'll go oh, dad would like and then. I'll think no, you're laughing right now.
Speaker 1:I'm going to tell you yeah, I do the same thing. That's funny. It's like I wish I could call my parents and tell them well, just tell them, that's right, they don't have to pick up the phone. That's right, they don't have to pick up the phone, that's right, yeah, they're watching.
Speaker 2:They can hear yeah. And then I call my brother and tell him and he's like yeah, that would have made dad laugh. Sometimes he doesn't laugh.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. I think I think too, one of the things that I hope anybody listening who you know is comforting somebody that you know it's just. It's okay to say, like I don't know what to say, yeah, I'm just here, you know, and I want you to know I'm with you. I don't know what that looks like, I don't know what you need, but I'm here, that's it. That's it.
Speaker 1:And I always appreciated that and I know that you need. But I'm here, that's it, that's it, and I always appreciated that and I know that, you know, we. I think we believe we have to have the right thing to say, oh my gosh, yeah, no, but I will tell you this I remember when my brother-in-law passed um, I know, you know people were cause it was, it was very close to when my parents had passed, and so it just kind of felt like gosh, you know, one loss after the next, and it's like people would meet me with their grief and I was like, yeah, I, I, I can't attend to you too, right, but there was a difference between meeting me in my grief and your grief too, where we can grieve together as opposed to you're crying, I'm not.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And like okay, we're in the grocery store and I don't know that. You know you're anyway laying your grief on me. Yeah, yeah, and I know that's a hard ask. Yeah, yeah, and I know that's a hard ask. Yeah, yeah, because when you lose somebody and they may not have been as close to you as they were to the person, that is a hard kind of situation to navigate. Yeah, but I do think it's being sensitive to. Am I trying to hand you my grief? Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, know, does that make sense?
Speaker 1:oh yeah, you know, it's like the, the harmful phrases, the everything happens for a reason oh my gosh you, they're better off, or you know that kind of stuff is and it's.
Speaker 2:It's okay to be irrational, yeah, it's okay to lose your bearings. I mean, this is an adjustment. I remember a kid that I went through this with him. He had lost his brother and he told me at the wake all of his relatives, all of the people he hadn't seen, were there. And he said I was really having fun and I was running around looking for my brother to tell him how fun it was and I realized that he's not here. That's the point he said I couldn't believe that he wasn't there to share in that joy that I usually have Him to share it with him. You know it's irrational, he knew it. He doesn't need to be corrected or guided or directed, he just needs to be held. You know we get through it better with just being held than being directed. Right, that messes up the process.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, and that held is a figurative. Held, yeah, and sometimes it's not.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:But I, I, I do think it's, if it's, if you're grieving alongside with someone, it really is about following their lead, absolutely. You know, because I know there have been times where people that I'm walking with, that they've been, you know, full of grief and they don't want to talk about their loved one.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're like, I don't want to talk about it, it's like okay, all that's right. What do you want to talk about? And what's what's always so interesting is five minutes in there. Okay, I want to talk about it now. Right, but not always. Yeah, you know, it's like I was saying, you know, like people meeting me with their grief, and it's like, wait, I'm not there right now.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:And you're handing me a big burden of your grief. That's right. So it really is like trying to read their cues, yeah, even asking the question, you know, like, finally, the, the person that was draped over me crying their eyes out about the laws, you know, had they stepped back and said you're not in that place right now, are you?
Speaker 2:I would have said no, not really. Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know what I'm saying Like so it's. I don't want to, I don't want to come across as, like we're saying, read the tea leaves, but then be authentic.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And it's like no, be authentic If you're there and they're not asked the question. If they're not, then excuse yourself. That's right, absolutely. Because, look, no matter what, whether it's your grief or whether it's the grief that you're watching somebody else go through, it changes you, as evidenced by us sitting right here. That's right. You know, tearing up over people we've walked with very closely, yeah, throughout the years, yeah, and I think this is why it's hard for couples.
Speaker 2:What we were saying earlier yeah, I may not be in the place to be able to hold you, to be with you emotionally, with that right now, or physically. And it's not that you're always not going to be in that place, but sometimes, and just to say that and be honest about that, and that's okay and that's hard, but it's worse if you ignore that and try to forge on ahead and make it work. You can't, and accepting that you're just not where I'm at or I'm not where you're at, yeah, so interesting.
Speaker 1:I read this quote that rituals give structure to chaos and meaning to loss and you know thinking about things that like community loss, you know like a big, tragic, devastating loss, like what was experienced, what we've experienced as a community here in uh, in texas, you know, down at the hill country with that massive flooding, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:And that you know. I see people reminiscing about their time at those camps, or I've talked with people reminiscing about their times at the ranch. You know that and I don't know. I think again that it it's like that quote that structures the chaos and helps bring meaning to the loss. Um, you know, I've seen some little girls writing songs. You know about their, their that experience, and I just think what a powerful outlet you know giving meaning to that. Yeah, and I think too, you know grief. Grief shows up in our bodies, oh yeah, before we get it into our heads, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exhausted, exhausted, yeah, heaviness, uh, I don't want to move. Uh, tension, yeah, headaches, yeah, or conversely, you know, I just want to get going, I just want to get busy, I just want to move, I want to do something, you know? Yeah, okay, it's just noticing that. What, where is that coming from?
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, I often talk to people about the idea that when, when you, when you find your shoulders up in your ears, can you, can you bring them down and can you let, can you see if you can do some relaxation. You know, like, if they're up by your ears, tighten them higher and then see if you can drop them.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if you find that you're holding your breath, let's see if you can take a deep breath and hold it and hold it and then let it out and then hold it, yeah, and then another deep breath in and hold it. We call that four we. We do that in four second intervals four seconds in, holding it for four seconds, four seconds out, holding it for four seconds, and repeat. We call that four square breathing. And it's really interesting because it's the holding of the breath in between that really serves to reset our nervous system. That's right.
Speaker 2:And it is relaxing, it is grounding Right and you may become aware of stress in your body that you were unaware of and you're aware of.
Speaker 1:I'm here. I'm still here.
Speaker 2:I still count, I still matter.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because there's a lot of survivor's guilt.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, you know.
Speaker 1:Why wasn't it me or I didn't lose my kids?
Speaker 2:Especially when you're walking with people.
Speaker 1:You know, I wish it could have been me instead. I just think you're right. It's like it's finding meaning in those moments.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it will be different for everybody different times, like we were saying earlier. I love what you said about being like a weather. It's not a linear thing, it's like the weather Different intensities, different times. If you think you're through it and then it repeats, something hits you and you just let it happen when it happens, you don't force it and you don't avoid it, you just go with it. And to do that with people and to know that, like I love the blanket thing too. I'm sorry, going back to your illustrations, but it is how it goes and we can go through it. We go through it better with people who don't try to guide us, they just are with us, right? And then we do the memorial thing. Just think about all the ways that, the rituals that we have, the places that we go that we know they liked doing, the things that we know they like to do, and including others in that, eventually, is the moving forward in a different way. I don't have to avoid those places, right? I don't have to camp out there.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:I'm just going there and and experiencing that.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, yeah, my dad had. He was a musician and he had a love for music and he was a conductor and at parts of his, his life and career, he was a conductor and I just remember I couldn't go to, I didn't want to go to anything where there was an orchestra for a period of time. I bet.
Speaker 1:And then I remember being in a service in a place where there was going to be an orchestra. There was going to be an orchestra and I remember the way that the conductor raised his arms to start to to get the orchestra's attention. It literally stopped Like I. It took my breath away because it was far enough away and the guy was a similar age to my dad and it was. He was an older gentleman and it was like man, it just caught me.
Speaker 2:And it was like what is this?
Speaker 1:And it was just a. I mean, it was a torrential downpour of grief all of a sudden, right, because there it was, yeah, and you know I, I let myself tear up over it and I enjoyed what I saw, and I didn't try to make meaning out of it, no, I just let it wash over me.
Speaker 1:There you go, cause I think all too often you know it's like going out into in the beach, it's like you can fight the water, you can fight the waves, but they are going to win and you know or you can work with the waves and know you're going to get wet if you're in the water.
Speaker 1:So I think it's, I think it's really about just acknowledging what it is and and rolling with it and knowing that, if you're a person caring for someone in grief, fatigue is a very real thing. Burnout, overwhelm is a very real thing and just because you go on with your day to enjoy your, you know if you have a friend who lost a child and you enjoy your children, you're not dishonoring your friend. No, no, you're honoring your life and you're honoring your friend as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because, boy, they'd give anything that's right To enjoy that kid in that moment, yeah, yeah. So I think it's important to know that it's you know. If you are in the midst of grieving, allow yourself to be where you are. In the midst of grieving, allow yourself to be where you are. And if you are walking alongside someone, same advice allow yourself to be where you are. Don't take on their grief, that's right.
Speaker 2:That's right, that's good. Just be with them, right yeah.
Speaker 1:Man, I think we've walked through a pretty heavy subject here, yep, and I'm glad I walked through it with you, you too, man, and hopefully you know. I guess what I hope that people will take from this is grief is hard, yeah, and there's no linear way through it, nope, and just being with showing up as you, yeah, and just allowing them to showing up as you, yeah, and just allowing them to show up as them and do the best with you can, with the in-between, oh, that's good.
Speaker 2:That's it, thanks, mark Foster. Thank you.
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