Restoration Beyond the Couch
'Restoration Beyond The Couch' with Dr. Lee Long: Insights for Mental Wellness: Join Dr. Lee Long on 'Beyond The Couch,' a transformative podcast blending professional psychological insights with real-life experiences, offering practical strategies for mental wellness that bridge the gap between therapy and everyday life.
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Restoration Beyond the Couch
Unfolding Your Story With Josh Storie
In this episode of Restoration Beyond the Couch, Dr. Lee Long sits down with speech writer and coach Josh Storie to explore what it takes to truly communicate effectively. They discuss how to go beyond words to connect with others, build trust, and convey your message with clarity and confidence. Whether in leadership, relationships, or everyday interactions, this conversation offers practical strategies for speaking with purpose and impact.
Welcome to Restoration Beyond the Couch. I'm Dr Lee Long here for open discussions, helpful tools and real-life ways to show up as your best self. Together, we'll explore what it takes to live with clarity, purpose and hope. I went to a wedding recently and the best man's speech was so perfectly on point. And the best man's speech was so perfectly on point. Later I learned his speech was inspired by Josh Story's book Wedding Toast Don't have to Suck. Great title right, it reminded me. Great speeches, like great lives, start with truly knowing the subject. In our mental wellness, that subject is you. In this episode, josh and I talk about storytelling, authenticity and how to show up well on stage and in everyday life. Your path to mental wellness starts here. One of the things that I want to make sure that I read is I came across something that you wrote Okay, and I want to read this and I want to get your take on this.
Speaker 1:So, you, you, uh, on LinkedIn. I found you there, Okay, and under the about section you said the short version I build things out of words. The longer version is what caught me. The longer version is, you say I grew up with a pretty gnarly stutter. That means I grew up with a deep frustration over the inability to say what I wanted to say and how I wanted to say it. But something pretty dramatic happened in first grade. I learned to write. All of a sudden, a new world was open to me. With a pen in my hand, I could be funny, I could be insightful, I could be poetic. With a pen in my hand, I could finally be fluent. Yeah, when I read that, it stopped me in my tracks.
Speaker 2:I love that. Thanks, man.
Speaker 1:Why do you think it stopped you in your tracks? Because I think a lot of people see things that they have to overcome or get to overcome as deficits, as, like I am stuck this way and it's like you found such a beautiful workaround and I mean, you're a guy who is a public speaker and and you started like the the, you started this with a hat. I grew up with a pretty gnarly stutter, yeah, and most people, I'm imagining that feel like there's a deficit there or something that they don't want to necessarily interact with.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I might be jumping ahead a little bit, Jump away, but I actually share that story every single time I meet with a new client, and specifically when I do speaker coaching. Because what's really interesting with speaker coaching is you have those who raise their hand and they say I've identified some areas where I want to grow, Can you help me grow? Or they've been voluntold and someone has said, hey, you have areas where you need to grow. We want you to go see this person, which I would imagine is very similar to counseling as well. There's folks who say I want to be here and then others are like my mom or whoever is making me come my wife, my dad?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. And so what I found is that when I share that story from the front end, I always share that story and I'll say I tell you that because, while you don't have a stutter, you probably feel stuck. I said I know what it's like to feel stuck. I know what it's like to feel stuck and what this process is designed to do is to help you feel unstuck, because there are a few things more discouraging than not being able to say things the way that you want to. There are a few things more exhilarating than knowing that you absolutely nailed a presentation.
Speaker 2:I was like so, wherever you are, if things aren't coming out right, I was like that's why you're here. It's like you're here because, on some level, the words just aren't coming out the way that you want them to. So that was my whole childhood, growing up. I was like so I get that on a deep, deep level, and so we're going to help you get to a spot where things do come out right and you can almost see like their shoulders just go. And I found that, from a story standpoint, there is something about just telling that story that builds a little bit of connection. They feel more connected to me. But also there's a level of they have a framework with which they can now view what we're about to do, and so, yeah, I tell that story whenever I can, because people seem to connect with it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I connected with it when I read it, because I remember the first time I heard you speak, I was I mean, I'm not trying to fluff your cushion here but I truly was blown away by what you were saying and I just thought, wow, what a just the moxie, the courage, the yeah, the all of those for you to be a guy who had struggled with that and to be up there and it's like here I am, because I have really good things to say, and that did not impede you. I love that. Thanks, man. The last paragraph of it says while most people don't know what it's like to have a stutter, everyone knows the frustration or knows how frustrating it can be when things just don't come out right, and that's what gets me out of bed every morning. Yeah, it's helping people find the joy and the freedom of being able to say exactly what they want to say and how to say it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you wrote a book. I did. You've actually written three, am I right about that? Yeah, okay, the first two were about well, I shouldn't say the first because I don't know what order they're in yeah, but the two of them are about your faith and about common grace and that theme, am I right? Yep, but the other book that you wrote, which to me is wildly intriguing and the title I love, is how Wedding Toasts Don't have to Suck Yep, I love that Again. I love the way you communicate, so walk me through that, yeah.
Speaker 2:So we've all been at the wedding, right, where everyone's having a great time. Then the glasses begin to clink and you look up and you realize that some drunk best man has a microphone in his hand and everyone is thinking, oh Lord, do I have enough time to make it to the bathroom before this whole thing starts right and just hide out? I am of the persuasion that I think that the wedding toasts, like the wedding speeches, should be the most memorable part of an entire reception, that people should, like hop in the car and think what an honor it was for us to get to go to that wedding, what an honor that we were invited because of what they said about the couple. That it's a reminder of what a privilege it is for you as the guest to be here because these people are so amazing, reminder of what a privilege it is for you as the guest to be here because these people are so amazing. And oftentimes the conversation in the car is oh my gosh, that guy was hammered. Or oh my gosh, like that was so uncomfortable to sit through. Or oh my gosh, like I felt so bad for that bridesmaid. She was clearly so nervous. And so we walk away typically thinking about something completely different than what should be happening.
Speaker 2:And so I had a lot of folks over the years approach me and say, hey, you write speeches and stuff like that. I have to go give a best man toast, I have to go give a man of honor speech, can you help me do it? And so I just kind of sat down and wrote it all down because it was stuff that I was kind of saying that I kind of assumed was common knowledge and I would have these looks of saying that I kind of assume was common knowledge and I would have these looks of that's so helpful. Thank you so much. I go okay, cool. And so, yeah, just wrote it all down and, you know, made a book out of it.
Speaker 2:And I always tell people when I'm talking about I said you know, floral arrangements are important but floral arrangements don't ruin friendships. Best man speeches do, and you know. So if you're choosing on what you should really invest in, maybe spend $7 and invest in the speech that could turn either an embarrassing or forgettable, because that's typically the spectrum. Right, that this is either man, this is really embarrassing or it's forgettable. But if you could change the spectrum and you can actually make that the most meaningful moment in the reception. So that's kind of the impetus there.
Speaker 1:How would one go about that?
Speaker 2:Writing a speech like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just what are some of the highlights, without giving it all away. Yeah, yeah totally Because you should go to Amazon and you should buy this book. Tell me the title again Wedding Toast Don't have to Suck.
Speaker 2:See, that's just brilliant. So I'll give you my three favorite tips. Okay, one and this is going to sound, I mean, all of these sound so basic One is that you have to remember that the speech is not about you, it's about the couple, and that should be like well duh. But you'd be surprised at how many times folks hop up there and they start telling stories about themselves disguised as the story about the couple. Okay, say more about that. So it's always easier for us to talk about ourselves, right? And so what you find is that people will so like.
Speaker 2:An example of this, there was a guy who I saw giving a toast. Honestly, half of these are just really bad. There was a guy who I saw giving a toast. Honestly, half of these are just really bad examples I saw and I was like, do the opposite of that. But I saw this guy stand up and he had met his wife, because the guy that was getting married introduced them, and so his entire story was really about how he met his wife, and then at the end he kind of tacked on and that's the kind of friend that so-and-so is, and it's like you just told us your entire story about meeting your wife and the only connection to the groom is that he was the one who initially instigated that. He was the one that said, hey, you should meet so-and-so.
Speaker 2:And I remember thinking I was like I know nothing about the groom. I know nothing about the groom except for the fact that he hooked y'all up and you just spent 15 minutes telling me a story that was not about the groom, it was about you and your love, not his love. And so even just like stuff like that or like, hey, you know, you know, if you tell a story, oftentimes it's hey, so me and Joe, we were roommates freshman year and this crazy thing happened. And you hear the story and you're like I don't know what that has to do with Joe or why we're here or why he's going to be a great husband, and so oftentimes we just tell stories about ourselves because we think the stories are great and fun, but they're not about the couple. So step one is like naked about the couple, not about you, they're not about the couple.
Speaker 1:So. So step one is like naked about the couple, not about you, because what we tend to do is we tend to tell the story about us, but thinking we're talking about the other person Because there's a principle, and this is. This is really part of the reason why I wanted us to have this podcast today is because I I see what you and I do, yeah, is very, very similar. Oh, totally. And the thing that I see in my office often is that people think that they're talking about and this is going to be a little reverse People think that they're talking about themselves, people think that they're telling a great story, right, but really what's happening is is that I am looking to you to tell me about me. So it is the inverse, but it has a very similar impact, where that comes across as selfish.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:Right In a marriage will I say this all the time If you would quit focusing on your spouse and what they did and telling me how you hurt my feelings and you did this and you said these mean things to me, and if you don't stop this, then we can't stay together and it's like we're focused on the wrong person, and that's what you're saying in these speeches. Like you're saying yeah, that's fine to tell a story about you, as long as it includes the groom or the bride or the groom.
Speaker 2:Totally yeah, a hundred percent. I love that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes all the sense in the world. Otherwise, it's very irrelevant and you've lost your audience. The same when you're as a parent, you know you're wearing me out. Today you are acting so poorly, or you found your opinion and I don't know what to do with you and it's like the audience is like well, I don't know where you are, or why, you're talking and it's, I believe, as we've talked about this. You know, I believe it's a very similar theme. You're losing your audience.
Speaker 2:Totally 100 love that.
Speaker 2:So that's that one. A few more that I will I'll throw out uh. Two is uh, have a point, meaning that oftentimes there's not a, there's not a point there is. You just tell some stories from college and you say something pseudo-sentimental at the end hey, you know, cheers to the happy couple and that's it.
Speaker 2:And people are like, I don't okay, I mean cool, like yeah, yeah, fun story, but I don't know what that was about, right? So even if it's so, like that's even going from, it's not that it's about you, it's not about anything, you know, it's just, it's just something that y'all experienced. And so I always tell people find like one thing because like, really, it's not going to be a long speech Like, find one thing, one character, quality, one thing that you think is going to make this person a great husband, a great wife, that one thing to say hey, this is why you're so lucky to be married to this person, right, like one thing that makes the people in the crowd go oh my gosh, that's beautiful. So, like makes the people in the crowd go oh my gosh, that's beautiful. So like and like, have like a have a point to it.
Speaker 2:So like when, when my best friend got married. I was giving his speech and and I I talked about how, from from the moment that we were born, we were best friends. Our parents had been friends before we were born and I told this story about how my dad coached our basketball team as a kid and how my dad used to call us the dynamic duo, because we would play basketball just for fun all day, every day, and so we just always knew where each other was and stuff like that, and it was one of those things that my dad told us behind the scenes.
Speaker 2:Right, that's not like a moniker that he would say in front of the team you know, and so and so one day we were down by a few points and my dad kind of called a you know time out in the huddle and I, in front of the whole team, I'd said dad is a time for the dynamic duo.
Speaker 2:And my dad says sit down he's like because you know it was like it's like you don't just call yourself the dynamic duo in front of the rest of the team, and so I made this joke of us.
Speaker 2:I said that was the first time that the dynamic duo had ever been separated was in that game. I was like that was the first time that had ever happened until tonight. And tonight there's a new dynamic duo. That's happening, right, right that like we've been best friends our entire lives and now he gets to be a part of a new dynamic duo. And this is why you are so lucky to be a part of this duo, why you are so lucky to be the new addition of this duo, and I was able to kind of talk about that, right, and so that's just a just like having a point, having something to say, that kind of building it around it, and so it can be that it can be an experience, it can be a story, it can be a characteristic and really just finding that one thing that you want to highlight about the person and building something around that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that's first of all. That's beautiful. Like I was, I had chills listening to that, going dang. I wish I wish I had that speech said about me or you know what I'm saying? Yeah, or or could be a part of that, like because that really is a peek into sort of the like a, a private like, like you got to peek into his private world in a very appropriate and uplifting manner. Yeah and gosh, what a gift. Yeah, were there lots of tears?
Speaker 2:or cheers. There were a few. I think what's been funny is, I would say, I don't think I'm naturally a great speech writer, I just think I work really hard at it, and I think that that's just kind of been my MO as a kid is because I always feel like because of the stutter, I was always starting a few steps back and so I just became really obsessed with wanting to do this well, and so I just worked hard at it and I was actually giving a speech at a wedding one time and there were three of us guys giving a speech and I remember the first guy was a dentist and he didn't want to give the speech. He was really nervous and he said can I go first? I just want to get this thing over with. And we're like yeah, man, totally. And then the other guy was like you know what, josh? How about you go second? And then I'll like I'll like finish it up. And I said, all right, cool man.
Speaker 2:I was like I was like sure, cause, I mean I can go last too, I don't mind. He's like no, no, no, no, like you go. And then I'll like bring us home. I was like okay, and then, the back of my mind. I was thinking I don't say, hey, man, maybe I go last, and I was like, okay, so the first guy goes, he does what he can and it's great. He kind of stays in his lane, does. Well, I get up and I give a very thoughtful speech and everyone claps and stuff like that and you can kind of feel the emotion in the room Because I think I just put some thought into it and the guy grabs the microphone and he goes. You hustled me. I forgot that you're a professional speech writer.
Speaker 1:He's like how am I supposed to follow that? I was like I tried, man, I tried to you know, give you.
Speaker 2:But you know, I think that's part of it too. It's just point. If you just have a thought, it's just going to set you apart significantly from folks who are just get up there and wing it.
Speaker 1:I think that's right. I think that you bring up a really interesting point, though, is that you feel like you're coming from behind, and so you work really hard in this, and one of the things that I love about what you're explaining or what you're what you're talking about is is that you, you know, you, you know, I know my limitations, but I'm not defined by those. Yes, I use those and say I know what I have to offer, and you're a grinder Like that's part of your character. Yeah, is that? I mean? That's fair to say.
Speaker 2:I'm sure you've heard that before.
Speaker 1:You're a guy who's not afraid of hard work. I've known you for a very long time and I've never seen you shy away from hard work or anything difficult like ever. And I think that that is part of your character and it's like you know you well and being able to walk that out and and and have a point, it's like, okay, I know what I have to offer, and that's me.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I'm going to offer me by way of then now learning you or like having my point and getting there, and it's really powerful. Thanks, man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I will say.
Speaker 2:I think it took me a long time to get there, though, and I think that anyone who gives speeches or is in public speaking at all- I think the natural inclination is we all want to be like an off-brand version of our favorite speaker, and I think that that's kind of where I was for a long time is I was just doing my best Matt Chandler impression, or I was doing my best, you know, insert public speaker here my best Simon Sinek impression or whoever and I remember the moment that it clicked for me of really kind of knowing who I was as a communicator was I was. I was a pastor at the time and I had just taken over for a guy who got promoted and and so you know, oftentimes if you get a new job in ministry specifically, it's either usually it's hey, this thing is tanking, and we need you to like spice it up and do whatever Right. And I was in a really unique position where it wasn't hey, this is tanking, it's actually, this is going really really well, so well that this guy got promoted.
Speaker 1:So now don't rock the boat, like don't you know, don't mess this good thing up, right.
Speaker 2:Exactly. And the guy who had created it is a mutual friend of ours, has a very specific personality and has a very specific dynamism on stage, right, the way that he speaks is so unique that I remember thinking, well, that's how I need to speak when I preach. I mean, that's what built this thing, that's what, like, that's the type of communication that this audience is drawn to. So I need to be like him. And it took about, you know Right. So I need to be like him. And it took about, you know, probably a year, a full year, before I realized that his humor isn't my humor, his delivery isn't my delivery, the way that he illustrates isn't the way that I illustrate, the way that he structures isn't the way that I structure. And when I realized that I had to figure out who am I as a communicator, that's when things really started to click. And because I do think for a lot of folks and I see this a lot, especially with young pastors is it's, you know, whoever the hottest preacher is at the moment. You know they're, you know, an off-brand Matt Chandler, off-brand John Mark Comer, off-brand Andy Stanley. You know, fill in the blank, they're trying to find the guy that they listen to the most and they're just doing their best impression. And I think that there's something about learning and the time it takes and it's a bit of trial and error, right Of learning.
Speaker 2:Uh, that joke didn't work. Why? Because that's not how I talk, that's not how I make a joke, that's not how I deliver a joke. Or that illustration didn't land. Why? It's because I don't. I didn't find that illustration didn't land. Why it's because I didn't find that illustration interesting, or that's not how I think about things. I was just trying to take that person's illustration and plug it in here because it worked for them, so surely it would work for me. And this takes time to kind of learn who you are. But then I feel like once you learn who you are as a communicator, that's when it gets really, really fun, because you're not trying to be someone else, you're really stepping into how God has wired you as a communicator and that's a blast.
Speaker 1:You know, the cool thing about what you're saying is that authenticity is what resonates the most with other people. There was a study done where they were measuring the energy waves. And this isn't woo-woo, but we do emit energy. You do feel other people's presence and they they were looking at the, the energy that was being emitted in this. I forget what it's called, but it's like a. It's like a box that they put people in. It's a big one. It's not like a coffin, it's a big box. So those of us who are claustrophobic, it was a nice spacious box, but they put them in there where there's no other energy waves that were impacting the reading of the energy and people. You know, when we say what's the greatest impact of energy, people usually say, oh, it's love or it's joy or it's some positive emotion. That's not what they found, it's authenticity, and that when someone is open and meets you with their authenticity, then your waves collide and they double.
Speaker 2:Interesting.
Speaker 1:And so there's, all of a sudden, this ah, I can be, and it's like an encouragement to be yourself. Yeah, for almost three decades. That that's what people want is I want to know that I'm acceptable, I want to be known, I want to be loved, I want to be, you know, accepted. Well, what you're talking about is I'm going to go up there in front of an entire crowd or congregation, whatever the, whatever the situation is, and I'm going to be somebody that's not me. And what's the impact on the audience? Right, it's pretty stale from what you're saying, but when I go up there and if I tell a story or give an illustration or try to tell a joke that is not in line with my sense of humor, then the energy that I'm sending out is not going to be that great Totally. So what am I producing out there?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right. So okay, let's take it from the scale of a big group, let's take it to a group of friends. Let's take it to one-on-one with your partner, your spouse, whatever your best friend. One-on-one with your partner, your spouse, whatever your best friend. Yeah, it's like if and look, I know we struggle, we're all going to struggle to be authentic in in various settings, and I'm not saying that you walk into a dicey situation and you're not guarded, Right, but I do think that the more we learn who we are, the more authentic we approach things. We get different results. Yeah, and you're saying that's true on any stage.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent.
Speaker 1:And basically trying to be somebody that you're not. You're going to get back. Yeah, you're going to get back. Yeah, I don't want to say a negative response, but it's certainly not going to be the response that's going to. You know, that's not the response. You wake up every day, excited to embrace Totally.
Speaker 2:And it's tough to do that. I'll give you another example. So I also write speeches. I'm a corporate speech writer and we write for executives at tech companies and stuff like that. Writer and we write for executives at tech companies and stuff like that. And a couple of years ago we were writing a speech for a woman who was coming in as the new CEO of a tech company. There were two co-founders. One of the co-founders was the CEO, the other was the CTO. The CEO had just rolled off and retired, and so she was coming in and this was her first major presentation as the new CEO and the way that it was. So no pressure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, zero pressure at all right, and so what was pitched to us was this is her chance for people to get to know who she is. Right, because the former CEO had a very unique personality, very distinct way of communicating and people really loved it and so it wasn't a we're judging her to see if she's as good, but it was a sense of they knew who he was. Now they're excited about her, but they just don't know her. They don't know who she is. And this was her chance to really show people who she is and we start working with her and we hadn't been this excited about working with the client in a long, long time, because what a cool opportunity to help someone discover their voice, hone their voice and then deliver that in a way that has this really amazing introduction as the new CEO. But what we found to be really interesting is that the other co-founder who was still there also has a very unique personality and people love his presentations he has. He's just really unique, like I don't know another speaker like him. And what we found is, as we were working with her, is she would tell us, she would say his name and say I need you to write me some so-and-so isms and we said what are so-and-so isms? She goes well. When he hops on stage he has these little one-liners everyone loves and I know y'all work with him too. Can I get some of those so-and-so isms? And we said, well, first off, we don't actually write those. Those are uniquely him, those are his isms, like those one-liners. That's just the way that he talks and the way that he thinks that's unique to him. And we said but why do you want so-and-so isms? Why don't you want your name isms? And she goes well. I know that's what people like, that's what works.
Speaker 2:And we went back and forth of saying we're not going to create you so-and-so-isms, because that's not you, that's not authentic, that's you trying to be like him, because you know that people like him. What we're trying to do is to get you to a place where people understand who you are and they fall in love with you, not you doing your best impression of so-and-so. And it was a real struggle. And, to be completely honest, when I go back and I watch the presentation, there are some really great moments. But there are also some moments when we see her make a decision, because we were behind the scenes. We see her make decisions and I can say that's not you. That's not you.
Speaker 2:That is you trying to cater to an audience based on what you think they like, based on what they've seen in the past, as opposed to giving them the full version of you that we saw behind the scenes, that we think they would know and love. Because we fell in love with, like we, as soon as we saw that version of you not the version like the true, authentic self and we saw those things about your personality and you told those stories. That's the version of you that we thought, oh my gosh, that's what everyone else needs to see. And so, even if you're on the biggest stage, you're a CEO of a massive company, there's still that level of we look around and we think, well, I need to be like these other people because that's what works, and it really is tough to be able to show up and authentically deliver as yourself. It doesn't matter if this is your first time giving a speech or you're a really seasoned CEO, like it's a very common struggle across the board.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I do think we need to show up and embrace authenticity. I think there's such a powerful message in that right that it's and it's. It's not just in in public speaking, it's in our relationships.
Speaker 1:I'm sitting here thinking, man, I wish, I wish we could teach this to everybody in middle school you know, because you think about the unique dynamics of of people as they grow, and it's like I can think of all the people that are my best friends and I'm like, yeah, they're all incredibly unique, yeah, and they're all quirky, totally. They have their own isms. Yeah, you know what I mean, and it's like that's part of what their uniqueness is, part of what I love about them, part of what their uniqueness is part of what I love about them. And if they tried to be a version of something different to I don't know, to be more well-liked, it's like you know, oh, yeah, that's so-and-so, not being themselves, and so we kind of pull back from that Totally Because it doesn't feel authentic. Yep, and you're saying that you're watching this happen in real time in speeches and presentations. Yeah, man, I wish we could teach kids and people this. I mean, this is my life's work, this is your life's work. It just comes out in different avenues.
Speaker 2:Totally Right and it'd be funny to think, or it would be fun to think about a study where you can measure middle schoolers who were taught to be authentic versus middle schoolers who live the typical middle school life, that believe like I can't be myself, because if I was myself they won't like me or they won't, you know, accept me X, y, z. I would love to see a trajectory of what happens when they, at a young age, begin to understand the power of being authentic. That would be fascinating.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think so, because one of the things that that puts you in when you're trying to be somebody else. I always say in any relationship, in any interpersonal dynamic, mind reading is one of the most dangerous things that you can do. We live in a lonely, we're living in a time where there's this loneliness epidemic and people say, oh well, I just saw something just yesterday that, oh, people are so they have more access to therapy today than they have in the last hundred years, right, and yet we have this loneliness epidemic. I'm like, yeah, because we don't know us and I don't always know that anytime someone sits down in a therapy situation, do we fall into a trap where we're talking constantly about so-and-so or such-and-such or my parents, and it's that quintessential. Oh yeah, blame it all on your parents.
Speaker 1:And it's like yeah, but where's your focus? Totally Not on you, not on discovering you. It's like, okay, great, I think I wear people out with this and I'm okay, great, I always I think I wear people out with this and I'm okay with that. But it's like they come in and they'll tell a story and it's like, well, and then you know my parents did this and okay, well, where were you in that People? I think people are going to etch that on my, on my. That's going to be my epitaph when I die is that okay?
Speaker 1:well, where were you in that? And it's in my question in that is is okay, you've told me about your parents, but I don't know about you yet and I don't know that, as a culture, that we have mastered that piece of it where there's the authenticity of. Where were you in that? Well, I came home and you know my parents were griping at me and I know I was late, but I mean, can't they just have a little bit of flexibility, like sometimes lights turn red and they don't, like you know it's five minutes out of light. And I mean I'm like, yeah, and where were you in that? Whoa? Um, I don't know. Were you frustrated? Were you sad? Were you embarrassed? Yeah, I was kind of embarrassed because I didn't want to be in trouble again. Okay, let's go with embarrassed. And how'd you handle your embarrassment? Well, I told them they were stupid. Okay, back to them. And so it became about them right.
Speaker 1:Instead of it's like hey guys, I'm sorry, I'm kind of embarrassed that I was late. Now I get that that takes some vulnerability and authenticity takes vulnerability and if we can move through the world, the world, in that way we can understand and let's, let's change the story. Like you're talking to somebody that you don't, you're not comfortable being vulnerable with, Okay, you don't have to say I felt embarrassed. You just have to know, gosh, I'm operating out of a place of embarrassment, so I need to tend to the fact that I feel embarrassed. I don't need to make my embarrassment his problem or read his mind and think he needs to see me be a strong person and you know, I've got to come back at him and tell him why his perspective is wrong or stupid or anything like that. Yeah, and I think that that's. You know. You're seeing that in ways that people communicate to the public. Totally. I see that in the way that people communicate with themselves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, on that note, I'm curious your thoughts on this. I find that, from a communication standpoint, there's a difference between transparency and vulnerability. Right, that transparency, I actually think, can earn you some points, like, like there's, you know, to me, transparency from a communication standpoint is oh, I'm going to tell a story about the time that I, you know, I messed up with my wife or I dropped the ball as a dad and I forgot the. You know, I went to the store, I forgot the milk and you know, and it's really kind of designed to be like, hey, like I'm just like everybody else Like there's some transparency in it and it creates favor with your audience because it makes your audience say, oh man, he's just like us or she's just like us. She's so real, she's so authentic Because you're letting people into your world.
Speaker 2:But the difference, in my mind, from transparency and vulnerability is vulnerability is the idea that if I tell you this, this could change your perspective of me, this could change the way that you think about me, because it is so real me, because it is so real, it is so authentic that I'm not covering my story in this sort of gloss of yeah, I'm telling you something embarrassing or something that I did to make a mistake, but I'm still curating it in the sense that you get to see inside, but you don't really get to see fully inside. Versus vulnerability says I'm going to tell you something real about me and I have no control over whether you accept me or reject me, and that's how it's going to go. And I find that for a lot of presenters, being truly vulnerable is terrifying, because transparency is actually pretty safe because it scores many points, but vulnerability I don't know how. This is actually pretty safe Because it scores me points, but vulnerability I don't know how this is going to go. And it could go really, really well. I could get a standing ovation for it or I could lose customers.
Speaker 2:I could lose clients. You know, this one statement could actually be the end of my speaking career. Should I let people know this thing about me? What are your thoughts on the difference there between transparency and vulnerability, when it comes to us truly being authentic?
Speaker 1:I think this is a great question. I think that it's knowing your audience. Okay, because I don't think that there are. Oh, let me say it differently. I believe that there are people that you do not want to be vulnerable with. They're not safe to be vulnerable with is one to somebody in their mind. But if you truly have a person in your world who is narcissistic and they and I mean they meet the criteria in the DSM five for narcissism, not the colloquial oh, they're so into themselves, they're a narcissist.
Speaker 1:Not that but if you truly have somebody who is very narcissistic, then being authentic with them is a little bit like, you know, opening a red, like opening your, your, your jacket, to a red shirt, to a bull, it's like you're probably going to get eviscerated. Yeah, and I don't think that that's wise because you're not being authentic with yourself first. Yeah, and so I do think that transparency for speakers makes sense. You don't know who's in the audience but I do think that in that transparency you have to be vulnerable with yourself first to know what could this cost me, is it worth it and do I see it and am I comfortable with it? Otherwise it's not going to come off as authentic. And so I think that in relationships there are certain people that you, you may have a boss who is just hard, harsh, and it's like I don't want to be authentic or I'm, sorry, vulnerable in saying, you know, when you said that, like man, I really kind of beat myself up inside and really like that kind of destroys my sense of wellbeing.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well good, you needed that, yeah, and maybe you need to get stronger and tougher. It's like that's not that's being met with a fist in the face, right, I always think about it as um. I love the movie elf.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I just, I just think that that movie has so many great, great um metaphors that that show up. And I think about when elf crosses through and he makes it to New York and he sees a, a, a raccoon, and that raccoon he's like oh, somebody's sad, do you need a hug? And the raccoon jumps on his face and the camera cuts. But the idea is that he mauls him for his sense of ignorance. Right, and that ignorance was vulnerable.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I just think there are times where I don't know that that's appropriate.
Speaker 1:Yeah, makes total sense, yeah, but I do think that yeah Makes total sense who you are and where are you in that. Well, that was embarrassing or that was painful, okay, I think another example to your point of like should should we, to our audience, be vulnerable? I mean, you know, there's there, there are times where I'm meeting with like a, a um, a high schooler or somebody in college, or even a person who's new to to the workplace and, you know, just starting out their career, and especially I had a. I had an incident or an instance where recently, a person who's starting out in their career and they have decided that they want to give sales a try, okay, and their life is authentic. They just naturally are an authentic person. And they came in to talk about how frustrated they were with some of their coworkers because they feel like they can't be authentic with them, because they feel like they can't be authentic with them, they can't be vulnerable with them, because, like, he laid out an idea for this presentation that they were all gonna collectively give and all of a sudden, these other guys were like, taking his ideas and he was like, what? Like these people aren't trustworthy.
Speaker 1:And as he was realizing that that, he was like, okay, I have to now think about how I can still be authentically me but also not give away the farm with people who aren't trustworthy. Yeah, and it was. It was a very interesting, um, the very cool process that he walked through. It's like finding his limits of what he was willing to share and what he felt like he needed to keep back. Yeah, and even to be able to share his frustration with these other guys that were, you know, grabbing onto his idea and twisting it to make it theirs is how he could stand up for himself in saying, hey, I don't think that's appropriate. I'm, I am, I was part of that, and I think we need to figure out a way where we can walk through this and where it's collectively our idea, instead of you staking, instead of people staking their claim on these ideas and owning them holistically as their own.
Speaker 1:And I think that, as I was watching him now, granted, he is very psychologically aware, very emotionally in tune, his EQ is off the charts and he was able to walk through that of saying, not accusing, not demanding, but just standing up for himself without demeaning them and I was like that's a really. That audience is not safe for you to be vulnerable, to go, hey man, that's not cool. It kind of I'm feeling a little left out over here, we. That is like chum in the water for sharks to just take him and go, oh poor you. Let's, let's sideline you more, right? And I do think that you're right that there are certain like speakers or are c-suite folks or you know, whatever the situation is, where they're, like I can't be.
Speaker 2:Well, I cannot be that vulnerable something that I heard you say and tell me if I'm thinking about this right, because I do think this is such a fascinating that it's a fascinating idea is that authenticity or vulnerability is not something that audiences are entitled to.
Speaker 1:That is very well said.
Speaker 2:Because I think that that's one of the things that speakers feel like oh, to be authentic as a communicator, I have to be vulnerable, because those are so intertwined. And I love the idea of saying certain audiences have earned the trust to receive vulnerability and that vulnerability is a gift, but it's not something that audiences are entitled to in order for you to be authentic. And I think that, as a communicator, that's a really, really important point to understand, because I can be transparent, I can have a level of transparency and honesty without being so vulnerable that I just give away stuff to folks who haven't earned the right or earned the trust to actually receive that info.
Speaker 1:I think that's very well said and I think that I know one speaker who came out and talked about vulnerability and then her response to that was she. Her description was I have a vulnerability hangover. And I think, yeah, because it took something from you and I'm glad she gave the vulnerability, yeah, the vulnerability, and hopefully the audiences have earned it over time, but I don't, I don't think we all have to walk that path.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I remember a time where we had an interaction with somebody that I thought this person isn't safe as a family. Yeah, this wasn't a family member, it was an outside person that we'd met once or twice and we had bought something from them. It was from them, and I remember thinking we were going to return what we had purchased because it just it wasn't working out. And we all agreed as a family it wasn't working out and I thought to myself I don't know that this is a safe space and so I've got to walk my kids through. How do we, how do I not teach you or how do I teach you to have like? Basically, there's times to compartmentalize your emotion. And I remember we were driving to return the item and they were crying and we were all sad and I said I pulled over and I said, hey, listen, guys. I said is it in? My kids are, at this point, um, familiar with the fact that I'm going to ask you random questions, that I promise they're going somewhere? But I said hey, guys, let me ask you something. I said when you go to school, is it appropriate for you to wear your bathing suit? And they're like, no, that'd be weird. I said okay, if you go to the pool, would it be appropriate for you to wear your church clothes? No, that'd be strange. I said, okay, is it appropriate for you to wear your church clothes in the bath? No, that'd be weird.
Speaker 1:I said, okay, is it appropriate for you to show up to school naked? No, that'd be really weird. And I said, okay. I said but is it appropriate for you to be in the bath naked? Is it appropriate for you to show up to church in your church clothes? Is it appropriate for you to show up to school in your uniform? Is it appropriate for you to show up to a school in your uniform? Is it appropriate for you to show up to the pool in your bathing suit? I said do you see that? It's that what you're wearing and the appropriateness of it is in the context in which you wear it. They're like, yes, I said where we are going is Antarctica. Zip it put your parka on, Okay, but when you get back into this car, it is like the bathtub, it is like the shower. You can let your emotions flow. You're safe here. Where we're going is not emotionally a safe place for you to just give all your emotions away. So I want you to understand the context with in which your emotions are safe and appropriate.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that's to me. You're that, that's I think we're kind of saying similar things that I don't think that the speaker is going to show up to their presentation in their Brazilian, you know, speedo.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Totally. It's not appropriate. Yeah but if they're on the beach and they choose to wear that.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:And so, yes, I do think that there is a context in which and I think it depends on the audience and any more most all things are recorded. So the context of the audience spans even further beyond that that's a great point.
Speaker 1:And so I do think it entered. Recording things does introduce a different dynamic of how do I want to show up, and I believe how we show up to things really is about the context. But I have to know me, to know what my context is Totally. Therefore, you know, it's like it's like the self-awareness of like, oh, my shirt's untucked, oh, I forgot to button my pants. Or even, oh gosh, my fly is down, right, right. It's having the context of knowing like, oh wait, I've got to show up a little more buttoned up here. Oh, I need I can be a little more relaxed here. Yeah, so you had, you said you had, you had three tips that you were going to give for the wedding toast. Let's hear that third one, okay, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think the third one that I would say actually I'm going to combine two, if that's okay. Of course I know that's cheating a little bit.
Speaker 1:I'm okay with you cheating.
Speaker 2:So one is to be creative, right, not kitschy, but be creative, right, if there's a creative way that you can approach something. I remember one of my favorite ones I ever saw was a buddy of mine was giving a toast for his brother and his brother was was a big baseball fan. And so he said, hey, you know my. So he like hopped up there and said, hey, so my brother doesn't understand a lot of things, um, but he understands baseball. He's really good like he knows a lot about baseball. So I want to give him some marriage advice based on baseball, because I think that's what's going to really make him get it. So, hey, girl, I got you all right, like watch this.
Speaker 2:And then he had this just really clever, you know description of all these things that would make his marriage great, using baseball analogies or baseball terms. And then I just happened to be at the wedding of him and his brother gave a best man speech and he said so, my brother actually doesn't know a lot about a lot of things he says, but he understands the craft brewing experience. He said so I'm going to give him some wedding advice or some marriage advice based on the craft brewing experience. And so he essentially took his brother's speech, flipped it on its head and it was just this really fun, creative thing and if you were at both of them you thought that's a really memorable way to go about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So be creative. However, the other point that I would make this is not a moment to assassinate someone's character. This is a moment to build them up and encourage them, and I pair those together because I think that oftentimes, in the creative process, we end up assassinating someone's character and we think that that's funny, and the reality is this is not the moment. This is a moment to highlight the fact that this is one of the best human beings I've ever met in my entire life, and if you're close enough to this person to be holding a microphone, you should have more ammunition than anybody of what an amazing person.
Speaker 1:This is right.
Speaker 2:And oftentimes folks will hop up there and they'll be like hey, so I'm going to give you five things that you should know about living with so-and-so. I've been roommates with Joe for seven years and so, sarah, you know good luck. First thing you should know about Joe he's super messy. Point number two he never washes dishes and it's like dude one. No one cares about that.
Speaker 2:This is not the time versus saying hey, so I've. I've lived with joe for seven years. I know more about living with joe than anybody on the planet. So I'm gonna give you seven things that you should know about living with joe. Number one he is the most thoughtful roommate I've ever had in my entire life. Number two he you know, if you come home at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what's going on in Joe's life. He actually wants to hear what's happening in your day, and I think you're going to find that to be an absolute delight at the end of a really long, long day. Number three right, and you can just like mix stuff up. So, so I do do it in a way that builds people up, as opposed to assassinating their character, because far too many people just choose that as a moment to rag on their friends, and it's not a roast.
Speaker 1:I think this is an you bring up an interesting point, because you talked about the idea of the study with the junior hires. I would love, I would love to interview the best men, the best, the brides, the maid of honor whatever.
Speaker 1:I would love to interview the person that steps off of a speech like that and say where were you in that, Like, help me understand where your psyche was when you wrote that speech? Yeah, Because I I would bet a decent amount of money on the fact that there was some level of something going on inside of that person giving the speech that prevented them from truly connecting with the positive about what was going on for Joe.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, totally, and I think that our lack of self-awareness and I know that that's a buzzword, oh, I'm so self-aware I would posit that no, you're not. You're aware of what's around you Right.
Speaker 1:That's called environmentally aware, but you are not aware of self, because a self aware person I don't. I don't believe, if they were asked to stand instead with somebody like that, that a self aware person would truly go eviscerate the character or the maybe not the character, but whatever they're not going to go eviscerate a person that they are that close to, to your point. And so it's like, really, how are you showing up? Because how you show up impacts everything, everything in how you communicate, because I really believe that what we're communicating is why I hate sarcasm. I love I shouldn't say that I love sarcasm. If sarcasm is not the expense at the expense of another person and it's not mocking or chiding. I hate mocking and chiding humor. I don't like it, and it unfortunately tells me a lot about the person that's delivering the humor. So I'm like dang, where are you? Why are you so frustrated? Yeah, what's going on inside of that head of yours? Totally, I'd love to get in there and tinker around and understand you better, but I sure don't want to be on the other end, the receiving end, of that stinger. Totally, I don't like it.
Speaker 1:You know what you do, what, what we do, what we're talking about, is far more than giving like orating, or giving a speech.
Speaker 1:We're talking about leaving a legacy, because our words have impact positive, negative, neutral and your whole career has been around, been a part of, or been focused around leaving a positive legacy empowering people, encouraging people, teaching people and that's what I feel like my life, my life's work has been as well, and I think what we're both saying is man, it's time to show up authentically. It's time to show up as you not an angry you, not overly vulnerable you, but authentically you. Because the thing that I wanted my kids to understand about zip it like we're in Antarctica is you can be authentic in your uh, arctic coat, right, your parka, your parka. You can be an authentic person in a parka, but you don't want to be vulnerable to everything? Yeah, but it's like man, can we create a space where people are more willing and thoughtful about who they are? Right? I think it's a huge call out there. Yeah, so, man, thanks for popping in here and having this great conversation.
Speaker 1:I love it. I always love talking to you. Same here.
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