Restoration Beyond the Couch

Building Healthy Sexual Relationships

• Dr. Lee Long • Season 2 • Episode 9

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In this episode of Restoration Beyond the Couch, Dr. Lee Long sits down with Nancy Houston, a seasoned sex therapist, to talk openly about sex, intimacy, and the struggles that can often go unspoken. Together, they explore how intimacy impacts emotional health, the challenges couples may face, and pathways toward healing and deeper connection.

This conversation sheds light on a sensitive but essential topic, offering both understanding and hope for those navigating intimacy issues.

SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to Restoration Beyond the Couch. I'm Dr. Lee Long, and before we begin, I wanted to offer a quick note. This episode contains sensitive topics around sex, intimacy, and dysfunction. Some listeners may find this discussion activating or triggering, so please take care of yourself as you listen. If you need to pause or step away at any point, please do what feels right for you. In this episode, I'm joined by Nancy Houston, a sex therapist, to talk about the vital role of intimacy in relationships and how struggles in this area can affect our overall well-being. Together, we'll explore both challenges and the opportunities for growth, healing, and connection when it comes to sex and intimacy. Your path to mental wellness starts here. I think this topic is so big and broad that I think that it's also something that it can be a bit of a lightning rod because it's so into I believe it's because it's so intimate and personal.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

The topic of sex and and the intimacy and the dysfunction that comes with that.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So absolutely you've been how how long have you been in this realm and in this world? Like, tell us about your background.

SPEAKER_02:

Let's see here, gal. I gotta go back a ways. So, you know, when I first became a therapist, like 25 years ago.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Um, I realized one day at the end of the day, I think I'd seen seven or eight clients, and all of them had sexual trauma.

SPEAKER_00:

That's unreal.

SPEAKER_02:

Not one, not two, not three. I did have uh it kind of like a practice of asking clients, well, tell me about the sexual part of your life. You know, because I just think that that's a question people don't get asked.

SPEAKER_00:

No, I think you're right.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I think that gets avoided. It even in the therapy sessions.

SPEAKER_02:

It so gets avoided. Yeah. And what would surprise me is like, oh my gosh, this person's been in therapy for years and nobody's ever asked them. And this is really where the root of their greatest wounding is.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, like they'd say, Well, I I mean, I'll never forget one woman who's probably about 70. And she said, Well, when I was six years old. Jeez. I had that happen all of the time. And I'm like, you mean for 60 some years you've been holding this shameful secret?

unknown:

Wow.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, not that what you did was shameful, but what was done to you, right? Was shameful.

unknown:

Wow.

SPEAKER_02:

And you've never had a voice or an outlook for it. And she goes, Yes. And I remember even like teaching on just on human sexuality, just like basic education.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And having older people come up and say, you know, I really kind of want to shake you. And I'm like, why? Because we needed this 50 years ago. Wow. Where were you?

SPEAKER_01:

Wow.

SPEAKER_02:

And so there's just such a need, but it's also an uncomfortable topic.

SPEAKER_00:

Sure it is. Sure it is. And I think about the Kaiser, the Kaiser Permanente study, the that turned into the ACE's the adverse childhood experiences. And that was a weight loss study.

SPEAKER_03:

Wow.

SPEAKER_00:

And what they realized was they they kept having people drop out. They would lose the weight and they would go away. They would drop out of the study. And so, like any good researcher noticing trends, they they it would be, why are we losing all these participants?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So they went back and and interviewed them. And they they went back through a psychosocial sexual history. Yeah. They said, Could you tell us about your first sexual experience? And it was exactly what you're describing. They many would say, Well, when I was nine, when I was 11, and they're like, Whoa, wait, wait, wait, how old were you? Yeah. And what they found was that there were all of these adverse childhood experiences. And that's where that that that study shifted from a weight loss and health endeavor and really became understanding the trauma.

SPEAKER_02:

That is so fascinating. I'm so glad they did that.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, me too.

SPEAKER_02:

Because, you know, we we uh have some sayings that I think can be applicable, not always, but like sex oftentimes gets stuck where it starts.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, so you think if there's an adverse sexual experience.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Um, and and whatever that is, for some, it's like, well, one time my sibling held me down and kissed me and touched me, and I've never been able to get past it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

For others, it's, you know, obviously like a neighbor down the street sexually molested them, you know, anywhere from rape to being touched to you know what I mean? But but still it just gets stuck in their psyche, and I think it gets stuck in their nervous system and in their bodies.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So when we think about weight loss, and yeah, you lost all this weight, but now, now what? Because you're still living inside of your own body. And for some, it's like, but I put on weight as a protective dairy.

SPEAKER_00:

And that's what they found. When they went back to these individuals, they were like, I had dropped a lot of weight. I started getting attention and I didn't know what to do with it. So I'm out.

SPEAKER_02:

That's right. And I had a great friend, and her husband lost all his weight. I'm like, gosh, your husband looks great. I bet you're proud of him. She goes, No, I cannot stand it. My first husband was super handsome and cheated on me all the time.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_02:

My second husband, part of the reason I felt safe with him is because he wasn't all hot and sexy. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And she goes, so no, I'm not comfortable with this at all.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

And I'm like, wow.

SPEAKER_00:

That's so interesting because it does. We those things provoke the hurt in us. And I feel like all too often we allow the environment to dictate to us how we're going to experience things.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh my gosh, totally.

SPEAKER_00:

So I'm curious. You I love your statement of sex gets stuck where it started.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Can you unpack that a little bit?

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, it can.

SPEAKER_00:

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_02:

Right? Right. I think in some way it gets stuck. I'm not saying that, let's say somebody had sexual trauma that they can't have a great sex life. Not saying that.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

But somewhere inside of their psyche, somewhere inside of their emotional world and their nervous system and in their bodies, it does get stuck. And and then we see, all I was with a client yesterday and and and she's young and acting out, and in all these hurtful sexual relationships. And so, you know, I kind of just start pulling the thread.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, like, oh, where's this gonna if we pull on this today, where's it gonna take us to? And for her, it went back to some adverse sexual experiences starting around eight.

unknown:

Wow.

SPEAKER_02:

And so she is psychologically in some ways stuck there. So I asked her, like, hey, if you were just to picture yourself in a safe room, nobody's in there with you, there's no door, so nobody can come in. There's a window, so we can look in the window. How old is that person in there? And she said, she's eight. Wow. You know, so I'm like, well, let's kind of start. How did she feel then? Well, she felt safe. Well, what happened then after the little girl felt safe?

unknown:

Wow.

SPEAKER_02:

And so she just kind of started unpacking it.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, and I I think if we can like I've I've always thought part of my role is just to be a normalizer of human sexuality.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, we're all sexual creatures.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

We are from the time we're born to the time we die, is just a part of our humanity. Right. It's it's a big deal and it's not a big deal. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00:

It does. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02:

It's just so normal and regular. I'd like to get people to think about it and talk about it like it's just normal and regular and part of who we are. Right. And if you've had bad experiences, it's okay to find a safe person.

SPEAKER_00:

I think so. I you know what I find super interesting, and I love what you're saying, is that things that are traumatic don't have to live in our soul as trauma.

SPEAKER_03:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

It's it's connection and being able to externalize something that helps it not live in our body as trauma because traumatic things happen. They do. And it's us having the ability, or really not the well, it is the ability, but really the place to feel safe to say this happened and it was scary, it hurt, it was it was traumatic. Yeah. And for someone to sit and receive that and to walk with you through that, yeah, that that's truly the recipe that I've seen that keeps the traumatic from turning into long-term or chronic trauma.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh my gosh, for sure.

SPEAKER_00:

And when you think about, like I I I when you think about the concept of um sex and normalizing sex, yeah. What was sex intended for?

SPEAKER_03:

That's right.

SPEAKER_00:

Connection and pleasure.

SPEAKER_02:

That's right.

SPEAKER_00:

And it's a that's right. It's a play, it can be a playful thing.

SPEAKER_02:

It could be meant to be exactly a place of playfulness. And when we think about, well, play is the antidote for a harsh world. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00:

I do.

SPEAKER_02:

And so I'm like, gosh, if if couples could happily sexually play together, it it would be it's such an antidote, even to just like being married, like, you know, because marriage isn't always fun and easy, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

But if we can still have fun together sexually, then you know, I know like with my husband, sometimes I'm like, you annoy me. Yeah, not all the time, but one, you know, sometimes, right? Definitely he's he's amazing and wonderful. But you know, we just have those moments. I'm assuming like everybody does.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. And it sometimes in those moments I'm like, I'd probably be good, just set my annoyance aside and we go make love to each other. You know, and then when we do, I'm like, huh, I can't remember what you were what was annoying me. You know, because it just shifts things and soothes. Yeah. I think it is meant to be kind of like a soothing and a smoothing.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And I, you know, the the thing that I think is important in what you're saying, one of the many things I think that's important in what you're saying is that it is a, you're, you're right, it is a reconnection. Yeah. I know so many guys that I work with that are frustrated or feel, you know, overwhelmed that their wife feels like, well, you just want to make up in order for us to head to the bedroom. And it's like, no, I want to make up. And then heading to the bedroom is really like reconnecting sexually. Yeah. Really, for him, is a reconnection. I want to be close to you.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, totally. And so I think sometimes females can misjudge males. Now, and I hesitate to make any blanket statements.

SPEAKER_01:

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02:

Because there are some men out there who are horrible lovers.

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

And they might want to, instead of like demanding sex or pouting about sex, say ask their ways like, well, what would what would you enjoy? Or what can I do differently? Or how can I be better at this with you? You know what I mean? And really make her feel safe. Like that's a great place to start.

SPEAKER_00:

I think that's the key.

SPEAKER_02:

Like, if you don't have safety, you can't have playfulness.

SPEAKER_00:

So, so one of the things about that, and I'm sorry to interrupt you.

SPEAKER_02:

No, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, people say, Well, love needs to be unconditional.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And I'm like, Yeah, love is unconditional or can be unconditional. But intimacy, yeah, by its very definition, is absolutely conditional.

SPEAKER_02:

Totally.

SPEAKER_00:

And love and intimacy don't always go together.

SPEAKER_02:

No.

SPEAKER_00:

I can love someone and say, I will never allow myself to be close to them.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Because I don't, I I do not trust that intimacy can be there.

SPEAKER_03:

That's right.

SPEAKER_00:

How do you how do you work with couples that I mean, I'm a you work with couples. Yeah. And the couples come in and say, We are stuck.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

We're stuck in a rut. We don't know how to get out of it. Yeah. We want to get out of it.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Or one one partner wants to get out of it. How do you like what's the what's the theme there? What's the approach?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, that's so good. Cause I mean, and honestly, I'm like, I just try to start exploring, well, where are you stuck?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Is it because you're not connecting at all emotionally and it's affecting you in the bedroom?

SPEAKER_00:

Do you think that that emotional component has to precede, has to come before that physical sexual component?

SPEAKER_02:

I think the older you get, the more important it is. Yeah. I mean, sometimes, you know, when you're just young and horny, it's, you know, you know, couples really are like, whatever. You know.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

We can have sex at the drop of a hat, you know. No matter what's going on.

SPEAKER_00:

But do you think that that, like sex at the drop of a hat, do you think that that's more physical than it is emotionally connecting?

SPEAKER_02:

I think, I think it is.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And I think as you age, the emotional connection becomes more and more important. Yeah. And probably who you are. You know, some people I think are more sexual, more physical, um, have higher sex drives. And, you know, I've had couples say, well, the only thing that holds us together is sex. Because otherwise, we cannot get on the same page at all. Interesting. You know, and so they have a lot of sex because it's the only thing holding them together. And I'm like, well, let's let's expand our repertoire, shall we? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Because if something happens to sex, then what?

SPEAKER_02:

Right. And then some couples are like so rigid and distant from each other. I'm like, hey, how about if we started warming up and being willing and start playing, you know, sexually with one another and see if that can be helpful in the emotional connection. I mean, who's to say? Some people like get to their emotions through thinking.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

Some people get their to their emotions through being sexual with each other. I mean, there's no one way to do this. It's kind of like, how does this work for you?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. But that ingredient of being willing. I love you, so I'm willing. I think is kind of one of the best main ingredients in a relationship.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And like, and I love you enough to make you feel safe.

SPEAKER_00:

I do you kind of find that that safety piece is at the core?

SPEAKER_02:

I I really think it is.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I I had actually, which probably led me to do the work I've done. I had a lot of sexual trauma myself. I was raised in a very unsafe household. And then when I'm 16, um, we start going to a church. I'm sexually assaulted by the youth pastor. Oh my God. Lovely, right?

unknown:

Wow.

SPEAKER_02:

And so one of the things my husband, and I just stuff that all down. Oh boy, we are uh-uh.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, we don't talk about that.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm getting married. Wow. This is my before life, and this is my new life. And the two will never touch. So, you know, I was really trying to live in in like complete disassociation from my childhood. And and there was good reason for it. I mean, it's just a way I think disassociation is isn't a mental illness. I think it's how we protect ourselves. I agree. And it's probably pretty dang smart.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

Right?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I mean, it's effective. It's so effective. Until it's not effective.

SPEAKER_02:

That's right.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

And so my we had four sons, our youngest started school, and man, when that child started school, it's like my path started coming up like a tidal wave. Really? Like a tsunami. And I'm like, dang, I can't. What do you think it was?

SPEAKER_00:

What do you think it was that the that that tsunami began?

SPEAKER_02:

I think that I'd kept myself so busy. You know, in my 20s, I had four kids. Busy, busy, busy. And all boys.

SPEAKER_00:

So Yeah, which is busy, busy, busy. Busy, busy, busy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Right?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And then he starts first grade. And and you know, I'm probably like for the first time in basically my adult life, because I had my first child at 19. I'm like, probably the first time in my adult life. I had a moment to sit with myself. And then all this trauma started coming up. And so, you know, thankfully, like it came up on a Saturday.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

On a Sunday, I contacted a therapist.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_02:

Never been to therapy. I I just said, it's somebody I knew. I'm like, dude, I need help. Like something's seriously wrong with me.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I don't know what. And I've tried everything I know to not to be okay. Yeah. Because you know, growing up, I lived in a household where socially my parents were very, they were successful socially. My dad was like the city judge.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

And they belonged to all the country clubs. And my mom was, I mean, one of my friends said, Oh, you're I loved your parents. They were such socialites. And I'm like, Yeah, everything needed to look perfect on the outside. So that's how I was trained. And like, you don't fall apart. And so here I am, 33 years old, and I'm falling apart. I had cried all day one day and could not stop. Wow. And so anyway, um, but one of the things back to what I was gonna say, one of the things my husband did for me is when we were making love, and he could tell if I got triggered, because I'd just freeze. And so he would stop and he'd say, Hey, are you okay? I'm like, mm-mm. Like, can't even talk. Like, mm-mm. About right now, you're the fire breathing dragon who's gonna hurt me.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow.

SPEAKER_02:

You know what I mean? Because you just he's a man, right? So, you know, it just gets transferred.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. And well, because it's not about necessarily the external, right? It's about the system that that network inside of us that says that this behavior is scary.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And what had been really good for us, you know, for like such a long time at that point, because we got married so young and had been so sweet and always good. Now all of a sudden, like I'm triggered, I'm frozen. And he had the awareness to notice and say, Are you all right? And and for me as a woman, for him to stop, ask about me, and like he's communicating, like, hey, I'm not like other people, men who sexually abuse you. Because if you're not okay, I'm I'm gonna stop and care about that.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

And so he made me feel so safe. And and that was such a gift.

SPEAKER_00:

No kidding.

SPEAKER_02:

So that's why I think, yeah, safety. You know, you a woman's gotta feel safe. And we gotta understand that, like, I'll ask my husband when we go into a parking garage, I'm like, parking garages terrify me. I mean, I I just don't think women are very safe in parking garages. Now that's probably my perspective because I've had too many stories from other women that you know what I mean. And so I'm like, how do you feel in a parking garage? He goes, Oh, I don't, I don't think.

SPEAKER_00:

Don't think about it at all, right?

SPEAKER_02:

And I'm like, oh, I have to make sure I'm paying attention to where I'm parking because I'm a little panicking. Because I don't feel very safe. And so I'm just like, we have to be aware that women and children have vulnerabilities that most men, not all men, but most men don't have. And so to give a woman a sense of safety, like you're safe with me. If there's anything I'm gonna give to you, it's gonna be safety. And you give her that, and I think most likely she'll probably stay open, more open sexually, because she knows she's safe.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that's a I that that part of intimacy, I I really believe that is at the core. Yeah. I agree with you.

SPEAKER_03:

I yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I and I think that I think that men want safety as well.

SPEAKER_02:

I yeah, I I do too.

SPEAKER_00:

It's just in a different way.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

It's to not be degraded. It's the whole respect versus love and tenderness. I shouldn't say love, it's care and tenderness.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Towards a woman, but it's that respect and the being upheld as good, and I'm not going to degrade you. And it's i i i I think it's kind of goes both ways.

SPEAKER_02:

A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, I love this quote from a book. Um, a woman had done a bunch of research on men and sexuality so we could understand men better. And men repeatedly said, I would rather clip the hedges in the freezing rain than make love to a woman who does not want me. Wow. Right? Like he won and I think we've missed that sometimes. Like men want to be wanted, they want to be pursued, they want to be know that you respect them. Right. You know, and you appreciate them. You know?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And man, if they have that, and then you and then she feels loved and cherished and protected and seen and felt, and you know, like my husband can always because you know, for years, like sexually, I could still like sometimes kind of disappear. You know, that's one of the ways I kept myself safe in childhood was I would just kind of like visualize going up into a cloud. And so it's kind of more of a habit. And it'd say, Hey, did you go somewhere? Where are you?

SPEAKER_00:

Like staying connected.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And I'm like, he could sense that about me. Yeah. Because I could just do it. It was just like an automatic switch. And he's like, Hey, where'd you go? And like, oh, okay, coming back to you. Okay, coming back to the present. You know, and he would kind of do that for me, like, just invite me back. And I think the best sex is an invitation and a great negotiation if we realize that every conversation we have with each other is some sort of a negotiation. You know?

SPEAKER_00:

So how would you how would you encourage a uh a couple to begin the initiation and then the conversation? Because I think that's I think that's a really I that's an interesting way to put that. Yeah. That's that I like that.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Like, um, you know, like some couples can say, hey, do you want to have sex? And that's their initiation and that's a negotiation. You know, and they both say, Yes, okay, we're on the same page, let's go have sex.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

It's that simple. For others, it's relatively complex. Um, like I had clients years ago. I'll never, I'll never forget this. Good, good people. And she was sexually abused as a teen by a friend's dad. And the way he would initiate and start was he'd put his hand on her shoulder. Well, guess what?

SPEAKER_00:

That's not gonna work.

SPEAKER_02:

Her husband, his initiation was to put his hand on her shoulder. And I'm like, listen, yeah, if you ever want to have good sex, you've got to stop this. You cannot put your hand on her shoulder. You know what I mean? You have to find a new way to initiate.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Now it was just such a habit for him.

SPEAKER_00:

Sure. I mean, we think about the things that we do, the patterns we have in life, and how much we have to differentiate.

SPEAKER_02:

That's right.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And and you know, our habits are just our habits.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

Like when you brush your teeth, it's just it's just a habit. Yeah. You do it without thinking. Right. That's how this was for him, but it's not working for her. And so honestly, it took quite a bit of repeated conversations, yeah. Until he finally, and even then it was still off and on, you know. And so I'm like, guys.

SPEAKER_00:

Did you find that in that way he was, I mean, uh you may say duh to me, but did you find that in that way he just kept missing her?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

It's thinking about what I would like. Yeah. So I'm going to do it this way because this is how I know to do it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

But rather, it needs that what what what it sounds like you've worked through teaching him is you're asking for something. You've got to think about the other person.

SPEAKER_02:

That's right. It it was really, I worked with him on other awareness. Wow. I would say his other awareness was a low.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And I'm like, hey, bud, we've got to build up your other awareness, emotional intelligence skills. Because where it's at, it's just not working. It's not going to work.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

If you want little to bad sex all the all your life, that's a path you're on.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So what are you willing to do to change that?

SPEAKER_00:

And not to mention, which I I know you're getting at, is you're overlooking your wife.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Like she's not seen nor understood, nor he'd be.

SPEAKER_02:

He was low on empathy too. And I'm like, we've got to raise your empathy. And so I'd ask him, like, she's talking about this sexual abuse right now. What are you feeling for her?

unknown:

Wow.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, and I'm like, and we had to work on tuning into some empathy that his wife had been sexually abused by a friend's dad. Yeah. You know what I mean? And that's traumatic and terrifying and scary. And anytime you put your hand on her shoulder, she freezes and she can't help it. It's her nervous system speaking. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that got hardwired.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And so it's undoing the hardwire.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh-huh. And that's going to take some time and patience and just a lot of kindness. You know, really being kind towards each other.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, we can't think that we're going to be unkind to each other and then think we're going to have, you know, sex that's sweet and connecting and bonding and attaching and meaningful. And you know, it just doesn't work that way.

SPEAKER_00:

No, and it's it's it's interesting to me when when you because what we're talking about is when these these the partner is bringing in something that is not brought on by the other.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Now they trigger it or they activate it. Yeah. But I'm curious as to your take as to when there's been either sexually overlooking, um, sexual trauma that has been brought on by the partner.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And just how you've navigated those scenarios.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, because I've I've worked with a lot of couples where maybe he's had a sexual addiction, you know, a lot of porn use affairs. And it's like it's really painful. Right. And I usually start with hey, are you aware that her brain has the same profile as a rape victim? If we were to do PET scans of both these females, one just was raped and one Just found out her husband's been cheating or looking at a lot of porn, or you know what I mean? That their brains look identical.

unknown:

Wow.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And so this is gonna take this is gonna take a while. And you're gonna have to decide are you ready to be a married man, a family man, or do you want to keep living as a frat boy? Because this frat boy, number one, who taught you that, who taught you that's okay, how you do married life.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

You know what I mean? Yeah. Well, my dad, my grandpa, they all cheated. They all I'm like, okay, well, I get it. That was your example.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

And you living as a frat boy isn't gonna work.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

And so I've got good news for you, buddy. I think you're a good man, you've got potential, I've got bad news for you. You're really harming your wife. And you're harming yourself.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, a lot of times I think people look at pornography and think, well, I'm not doing any damage to anybody.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, they they think that I mean it's my arousal template. Right. Meaning it's what I look at to make me aroused. Right.

SPEAKER_02:

And it's like, yes, and and I mean, statistically, men who view a significant amount of porn stop making love to their wives. And they have autosex. I mean, they have sex with themselves.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

Basically.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, and you and you are creating that template. This is what arouses me. Well, what's arousing you has nothing to do with a real female.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

It's all artificial.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

It's all staged. It's all, it's not real.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, and don't you think it takes the communication away? I mean, obviously because it's by yourself.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

But it takes the communication away of let me learn with you what it is that is stimulating and exciting and life-giving and love-giving.

SPEAKER_02:

And and when it's, you know, when you you've developed that template around quick, automatic, instantaneous, self-fulfilling.

SPEAKER_00:

Right, all about me.

SPEAKER_02:

Um, then that's going to be your sexual template. Right. And so then to patiently make love to a woman who, you know, her body's not that automatic. Right. She's not a porn star. She's a one-by-one. That's gross, right? I mean, it's not what she's it's not why she's with you. Right. And the thing is, is what what the research all shows, like even, I mean, you know, even some of these sites that talk about, because we're having such a pandemic of uh erectile dysfunction in younger and younger and younger men. Right. And what the medical community now understands is it it is connected to psychological, right? You know, and instantaneous, and you've trained yourself, and now you're having erectile dysfunction when it comes to making love to a real woman. You know, so the first thing they stop say is stop viewing porn.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, stop.

SPEAKER_00:

Which for a lot of these guys is or a lot of these people because it's men and women.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_00:

But it's easier said than done. Right. Because I there's usually a whole history of why pornography was something that caught your attention to begin with.

SPEAKER_02:

Exactly. 90 some percent of men who have compulsive sexual use um have trauma.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, so it's like it's that self-soothing. That's right. You you gotta go back to because what's the simplest way a boy can soothe himself? Well, porn and masturbation. Right. It's it's easy, it can be secretive. It, you know, and it it can help soothe um a lot of that trauma, anxiety, life is hard, families are dysfunctional, you know, kids get exposed to stuff they should not be exposed to. Yeah. And so it becomes a uh it really does become a way of soothing the trauma.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. Yeah. And it like you said, you get it uh I mean, I've heard of so many stories of people either a virus that is in a computer that somebody hacked in and they want to show some some really hardcore pornography. Yeah. And it's in schools, or like it's just all these different uh ways of it of being exposed. You you know I think in in m my age group, it was largely, you know, you walk in and you find dad's you know, Playboy stash, or you find something out in the woods and now it's in our, you know, they carry a their phone, yeah. It's right here. Yeah, in their phone.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it's right here.

SPEAKER_00:

And it's easy to access and people show it, and you know, it's it's it's manly to talk about it. It's right, you know, that's what we do is we we share pictures back.

SPEAKER_02:

It's a scoring, you know, one of my favorite stories, because I used to do a ton of sexual education, especially, I don't know, for some reason it was a lot of I mean, I do both parents, but a lot of moms. Like, and I remember one, she's a mom of four boys, and she said, I cannot say the P word. You know, and I'm like, Well, you have a lot of penises in your house. You better learn how to say the P word.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

And so I'm like, I want you to go home, stand in front of the mirror, and say the word until it becomes like nose, ears, eyes. You know, it's just part of the body, right? And so she did, and then from there she went on to really educate her boys sexually, like have really healthy, age-appropriate conversations. Right. Answer their questions, even when they don't even want to ask them.

SPEAKER_00:

But but they have them.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And so yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

To your point, it's taking the stigma off of it. Yeah to to because they they're their brains are like a sponge. And it's we're either gonna pour our water on top of it as parents, or the world will will pour their water on top of it.

SPEAKER_02:

It will. Yeah. And that's kind of the choice we parents have is like, do you want the world to teach them? Or would you rather?

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

And so anyway, she she she and her husband did a great job and really decided we better do this. Because they had had quite a sordid sexual past themselves, and they're like, we don't want that for our kids. We want to do better. So they really did. And one of our boys went to school, and while he was waiting for the bus, I think he was like second grade. And one of the other boys came up and said, Hey, do you want to see this? And you know, it's like a naked woman or you know what I mean, porn. And and the boy said, No, that's okay. My parents told me all about that. I don't need you to show me those pictures. And I'm like, isn't that cool? That's kids are curious, but if we feel the curiosity in some healthy ways, yeah, then they won't be so vulnerable. I'm not saying they won't still have some vulnerabilities. They will.

SPEAKER_00:

Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_02:

But maybe not as many.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

And and we could be doing them a huge service.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, and to your earlier point, yeah, that could be a traumatic experience, experience, but it doesn't mean it has to live in the body as trauma, in the sense that if we're open and we aren't we aren't afraid to talk about those things, that they can come home and say, Hey, mom, you know, Billy at the bus stop showed me this picture. Oh, okay. Yeah, and I'm not gonna freak out about it, but it's something that I may say, okay, yeah, what did you do?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Talk to me about that. Yeah, what was that like for you? It becomes more normal, not I don't want to say becomes normalized, but your response. We can look through look at it and say, Okay, what did you do? And we can problem solve it.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And isn't that great? I think the greatest gift we give our kids is not to freak out. Right. But just to we stay calm. Yes. And like, okay. Yes. Well, what was that like for you? And let's talk about that. And what do you want to do next time? And what do you need from me for support? Right. You know, because I want to be here for you and I know this isn't easy, you know?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And same with like, you know, when they they get these huge hormonal washes. Right. And they don't have a prefrontal cortex to go with it. And so, you know, we get teenagers that are all hormones, and it's like, how do we help them get through that?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's like it's a it's a all the hormone wash, uh-huh, which is all the desire. Oh, then they don't have that executive system of saying, let me think through this rationally.

SPEAKER_03:

That's right.

SPEAKER_00:

Because it's not formed yet. No. There's no executives living up there yet. That executive suite is uh a little bit empty.

SPEAKER_03:

It it really is.

SPEAKER_00:

I had a friend or one of my old mentors from many lifetimes ago. Um, she was a professor, and uh one of the faculty, they were out at like a bowling event or some some event, and one of her co-workers' sons was very little. And at the bowling alley, he just drops his pants and says, Mom, check it out. Look what it can do.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And it was like he was starting to experience erections.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

And the mom was like, Wow, buddy, that's super cool. Yeah, but listen, we're out in public, and remember that's a private part. And so we only do this in private. So let's go ahead and pull our pants back up. Yeah, but that's really cool, and I'm glad you showed me. Just remember, that's to be done in private.

SPEAKER_02:

That's so good.

SPEAKER_00:

And I was like, Whoa.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that's brilliant.

SPEAKER_00:

That was like, talk about fast on her feet.

SPEAKER_02:

That's like the ideal response, isn't it? Yes. I know one of my clients had her son kind of saying things, said, Look, mom, it does tricks. You know, and she's like, It does. That is amazing, isn't it? You know.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I think they were at home and he just gotten out of the bathtub.

SPEAKER_00:

Sure, yeah. So but again, it's just that we I I think it's the whole idea of like taking the stigma off of these natural functions. Totally. But I also like to everything that you're saying is we want to give space that that those tricks may activate a really hard system or painful system inside of the person that's receiving that information.

SPEAKER_02:

Imagine that same little boy who is jerked out of that bowling alley and gets his spanking and is so shamed. And and what we know is, you know, like the way sex is handled when we're young is oftentimes how we experience that when we're older. Right. So if he's really shamed about his body and is told, your body's dirty, that's bad, don't ever show anybody that again, then you, you know, then you get older and you're in a relationship and you're like, I don't know how to share my body, my body body's shameful and bad and dirty, and my penis is wrong, and I erections are bad. And it's like, well, it's no wonder. You know, people have a lot, some people have a lot of sexual stuff to work through because there's so much shame. And they were told that their bodies are so dirty and bad.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

And then to want to share that openly and freely is like, oh, there's a there's a huge gap.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. I think in religious circles, yes, one of the most difficult things that I've seen in my practice is when you tell, like, no, no, no, that's wrong, that's wrong, that's wrong. And then you get married, and it on the wedding night, all of a sudden, this wrong activity is now expected.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And it's like the mind bend that that takes, especially for a lot of women that I that I've heard from, that it's I don't know how to go from this being wrong and only the you know the bad girls do it, and only, you know, that it there's a there's a judgment assigned to it.

SPEAKER_03:

Totally.

SPEAKER_00:

And you know, when when my kids were growing, we're really little, we went, we we went to uh a sexual education evening. And this this woman was I I loved what she said. It's like start talking to your kids early about sex, start biologically, then move through, you know, the the the the emotional part, all of that, and for its design.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And I remember one of my kids asking me, okay, dad, I know what's deep inside of a man, deep inside a woman, comes together to make a baby. How exactly does that happen?

SPEAKER_01:

That's right.

SPEAKER_00:

And I remember like almost driving off the road and thinking, oh my God, how do I explain this?

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

We walked through the I walked through the biological explanation and they sat for a moment and they were like, that is gross.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh-huh. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And thank God this course preloaded me for that answer.

SPEAKER_02:

That's right.

SPEAKER_00:

And I said, you know what? That is the appropriate answer.

SPEAKER_01:

That's right.

SPEAKER_00:

Because it is intended for adults. Yeah. It is not intended for children. That's right. So you're right on target. At some point in your life, when you are an adult, you'll think it's really cool. I hope, for you. And they were like, cool. Okay. And we moved on.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And I just think that it's that space of like what you're saying is like, let's let's let it be normalized instead of something that so going back to the couples, yeah. When you have a couple, and I'm wondering if you've treated some of these, I'm certain you have, of where the husband has demanded or or over demanded sex, overlooked his wife, and said, I really don't care what you think. This is my right.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

You're going to give this to me.

SPEAKER_03:

That's right.

SPEAKER_00:

And it it tends to break.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, it does.

SPEAKER_00:

And what I've seen happen is that the wife says, No more for you.

SPEAKER_03:

No more. That's right.

SPEAKER_00:

Have you had success walking them back toward one another?

SPEAKER_02:

You know, I I have had some, some not, some yes. Yeah. You know, and just, you know, I probably start with, um, you know, figuring out, is this something he got taught?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, or or is he a jerk? You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And so if he's it kind of more of an entitled jerk, I'll start with you can be you can be right in what you think and never have sex again for the rest of your life. What do you want? Do you want to be right or do you want to have sex?

SPEAKER_00:

Right. Yeah, that that makes perfect sense.

SPEAKER_02:

And are you gonna make this a power play or are you gonna learn how to share power?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Because no woman wants to have sex with man who he has all the power because she's not gonna feel safe. Right. This is about mutuality. And if you got this idea from the Bible, let me show you where that's not true.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

Because, you know, the Bible talks about mutuality. It's it's all about mutuality. Right. There's no standing up for your rights.

SPEAKER_01:

No.

SPEAKER_02:

It's like, so I mean, if you got this from the Bible, dude, let me show you where that's not true. Because Paul's very specific.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

You know.

SPEAKER_00:

Do you do you find that and and so I I've had a number of scenarios where the and it's typically the male, the husband, and it's typically him overpowering some of its personality, some of its trauma. And I would say, I would say mostly it's all been some sort of either it's little T trauma or big T trauma on his part, where he is just more of a domineering type personality. And I think we all come into this world with a very specific personality, yeah, and we either allow it to work for us or we allow it to work against us.

SPEAKER_03:

That's right.

SPEAKER_00:

And there are gonna be people who are just a little more domineering, and and that that's part of their personality, and that can be used for good. That's right, but that tends to be the case, and they're like, Okay, I see it. Yeah, now let's go have sex again.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And she says, No.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah. So I try to get him to the place where he can ask her, hey, what would it take on my part to help you be open and willing with me again? What would need to happen here? And talk to him about, hey, there are appropriate places for you to be dominant. There are appropriate places for you to be tough. And then there's appropriate places for you to be tender, and you've misappropriated that.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

Like, yeah, go out and boss everybody around. You own a big old company, boss go boss everybody around. That's if that's what you want to do, go do it. Go take dominance in the market. Go exert yourself where it's appropriate. But in this relationship, this is not working for you. And so, what do you want? I always ask people, like, what do you want?

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

You want to be right, you want to be married. You want to be dominant, you want to have shared sex.

SPEAKER_00:

You know the funny thing that I find with that, because I I wholeheartedly agree with you, is I find that a lot of those guys will say, Well, I want her to fill in the blank. I want her to have sex with me. Like, I want her to be okay with it. I want her to change.

SPEAKER_02:

You want her to initiate, maybe? You want her to have some shared sexual power? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00:

But the crazy, well, crazy. The interesting thing that I find in that is it's like I think what we're learning here, friend, is you don't get to determine what she does.

SPEAKER_03:

No.

SPEAKER_00:

And I think that's that part of letting go of control, yeah, or what seems like control to her over her, or that I don't want to say it's letting go of influence over the environment, but it's letting go of the demands that you must do it this way. Because it's a it's it's such a balancing act, right? That she has to figure out how to be more um outspoken. He has to figure out how to how to receive. She has to figure out how to give, he has to figure out how to receive.

SPEAKER_02:

That's right.

SPEAKER_00:

And it's like that balance.

SPEAKER_02:

That's right. It's a constant. My husband and I have been married for 51 years. We had a sexual conversation on Saturday. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, it's a constant renegotiation, it's a constant, you know, we change, we age, somebody has a baby, somebody's having stress at work, somebody's not feeling. I mean, you you have to have these constant renegotiations with the goal in mind that I want this to be great for you, and you want this to be great for me. And so what's it gonna take? Right. And so it's constantly having conversations about that. And I think shared power is significant. Yeah. How are we going to share power as male and female in this relationship or any of our relationships? How are we going to share power? Because if one of you has all the power, it is not going to work.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. Because it's a very, it's the most intimate of the most intimate space. And if I feel like I'm, you know, if if one partner feels like they're always one down, yeah. It's like, how do you come to that being willing to give yourself openly?

SPEAKER_02:

That's right. And so I always work with couples. If one comes in who's one up, one's down. I work on giving that one who's one down a hand up, and the one who's up here a hand down. It's like, hey, we all need to be right here.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

None of us have this right. We've all got things to learn. And and here's the thing nobody whatever we have to do, we don't want to do.

SPEAKER_00:

It's a really good point.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. When I'm thinking, like, I don't want to empty the dishwasher. I'm like, but do you want a clean kitchen? I'm like, I do. Okay, I'm gonna empty the dishwasher. Because I don't have to do it. I could choose not to, but then my kitchen's gonna get really messy.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

So I want to, so I'm I'm choosing to. And it's the same with sex. Like if somebody's demanding, though the worst thing you can do for your sex life is get demanding and then to pout when you don't get it. Right. Like those are the worst ingredients.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

If your goal is to have a healthy, vi healthy, vibrant, exciting, erotic, playful sex life, yeah, then you're gonna have to give up demand and pouting and just learn some new skills.

SPEAKER_00:

That's in and when you've set a pattern of demand and pout, undoing that pattern takes a lot.

SPEAKER_02:

It does.

SPEAKER_00:

Because now you have a partner that has felt all the feelings that that that r that partner receiving all of that feels manipulated, cajoled, all those things.

SPEAKER_03:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

And the difficulty I find is if that partner is unwilling to move beyond that, and who has shut the door to that and said, Nope, I'm not willing.

SPEAKER_02:

That's right.

SPEAKER_00:

There's not a whole lot that can be done because this is a it's it's a give and a take.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it really is. And so, and plus, I think couples have set up a parent-child dynamic. So let's say if he's being dominant, then he comes across, I'm the parent, I'm the boss, you do what I say. So then this other one has a one-down child experience. Well, parent-child sex doesn't work, it's gross, it's disgusting.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

And then what happens if then he gets super pouty, then she might occasionally like, okay, I'll be the parent and take care of the little boy.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and that's the thing. And that too is disgusting and gross. Right.

SPEAKER_02:

And so they're never having the kind of sex they were meant to share as two adults willing and inviting, and like, yes, I want you. Right? Like this is fun and good.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

It's not something that we have to do.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's a mutual needs meeting.

SPEAKER_02:

Totally.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So how would you so so when you think about educating people? What what are the things that you like, how do you walk through that?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Well, it depends. Like, I've had some women like come in and like, I'm here because I don't like sex, and my husband's always been really sad about it, and we fought about it, and he'd like more sex. And so I just started exploring those dynamics. With some, it's like she had a total lack of any sexual education. And so did he. So they've never had pleasant sex. Right. Like they're unaware that she needs 20 minutes of foreplay before having intercourse. Yeah. And so intercourse has mostly been uncomfortable. Right?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And why would you do yeah?

SPEAKER_02:

Why? And so, right, why would she want to do something that has always been uncomfortable?

SPEAKER_00:

Right. Why would you initiate discomfort? Right.

SPEAKER_02:

You avoid.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

Like, oh no, I don't really want to do that.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. And so just giving her sexual education of like, you need foreplay. It usually starts with touching and caressing and kissing and, you know, stimulating of breasts and then clitoris. Are you aware that you have a clitoris? No, it's clitoris.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

Right? You know, and total unawareness of the vulva. And, you know, so just by educating, oh my gosh. Like I saw her probably 20 years ago. They still will like like email me and say, okay, you're still our hero. We, we have sex, you know, every Monday and Thursday, and we're the happiest people on the planet. Wow. You know? Yeah. And her husband's like, thank you, thank you, thank you. And I'm like, you know, just so I will, I'll give them some books, you know, like I want you guys to read this and talk about it so you can develop a sexual language.

SPEAKER_00:

I I love that you start there, which is a self-awareness.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

It's knowing, do you know that these are parts of you? Do you know that this is that that this can be good, like this can bring pleasure, that like that sense of self-awareness, right? And then others' awareness of do you know that this your partner has this part and what it what it's for and that's right, the function and like how to move through this together.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. That's beautiful. Like, I think it's so amazing the way females are created because you know, we think you think about we have a clitoris that has no other purpose. Its only purpose is for pleasure.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

For female pleasure. And I'm like, I think that says something. Like, you know, because there can be these ideas like, well, sex is a man's pleasure and a woman's duty. Well, that sucks.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

But if you look at creation, it's totally refuted. Like, no, no, no, no, no. You know, our creator was thinking about us girls too. And like, no, I I even even the penis can't say that. Like it's very, very utilitarian. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00:

That's funny.

SPEAKER_02:

But the clerics can't say that, like, you know, right? And I'm like, well, that says just if we're paying attention to how our bodies are made.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

And like, oh, this is saying a lot. Right. And I think, you know, sometimes we have this idea. I don't know if it's still around or there's just an old idea. I'm old, so maybe I have old ideas. But this idea that um, you know, males are more encouraged to sow their wild oats so they know more about sex. And that's such a false assumption. Like actually, a man doesn't know anything about your body. He may have had sex with a lot of other women, but that doesn't mean he knows anything about your body.

SPEAKER_00:

And I think that I think now everyone's encouraged to sow their oats.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And I think now that's true.

SPEAKER_00:

I think now, though, it's are we sexually compatible?

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

And it's like compatibility is something that's developed over time.

SPEAKER_02:

It's learned.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

It's learned. It's it's meant to be played with and experimented with. And what do you like? And like if I have couples that really can't talk about sex, I'm like, okay, how about if you went on a walk or a drive and you're not looking at each other and you ask each other, well, what do you like? Well, what do you like? What's nice for you? Well, what turns you off? Well, what turns you on? You know what I mean? And so it's it's learning and then teaching. You know, that's right. It's like, well, if I can't talk about sex, how am I gonna teach him? I'm like, you're right, that is a problem.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

We're gonna have to learn how to talk about this, right? You know, and you're gonna have to figure out your own body.

SPEAKER_00:

And I live again, I love that it starts with understanding you first. Because my big question and everything is where am I in this?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Not selfishly, no self-awareness. And it's a place of understanding. Yeah, wait, I have to know where I am to make my way toward what it is that I'm trying to do or where I'm trying to go.

SPEAKER_01:

That's right.

SPEAKER_00:

And until I understand I am here and I want to be there, this is the pathway to get there.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And it's the same thing with sex. I I just love how that principle rings true that sex is I a lot of times I hear people say, Oh, it's a barometer for the relationship. I don't know that I fully agree with that. And I don't, I I from some of our conversations, I don't know that you fully agree with that.

SPEAKER_02:

I yeah, not fully. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

But I think that it is an indicator.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

But like you said, that there's couples who don't like each other. I mean, they tolerate each other, and the only thing they connect on is sex. And it's like their sex life is great according to them.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

But they're missing all the intimacy and the connection in other ways.

SPEAKER_01:

That's right.

SPEAKER_00:

So yeah, I I just I think that that principle and truth of like I have to know where I am to then know how to work my way toward where you are.

SPEAKER_02:

That's right.

SPEAKER_00:

And I love that that's where you start.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, you know, just this idea that we're body, soul, spirit, and that we can't separate, we're not meant to separate one from another. And so this idea of what are we doing with our bodies, you know, number one, I mean, that's a great question for all of us. Like, how are you nurturing and caring your own body? And I do think, you know, when it comes to having really good sex, like sometimes, especially if like women are in the ages of having babies and there's lots of kids and she's just like giving so much every day, and maybe he is too, then it's like, oh, sex is meant to be kind of selfishly unselfish.

SPEAKER_01:

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02:

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01:

Sure.

SPEAKER_02:

Where like uh when people climax, it totally it's they go inside of their own bodies and all of a sudden it's all about them.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

And it's like, that's right, and good for you. You know, you know what I mean? And even though it's a shared experience, you're still, you know.

SPEAKER_00:

It's it's still your experience and it's it's the I think it's the sort of the quintessential interpersonal play.

SPEAKER_02:

Totally.

SPEAKER_00:

In that it's my experience and I'm sharing it with you.

SPEAKER_02:

And it's a shared experience with you. And like also when you have that attitude, like then you you receive pleasure from your partner's pleasure. You know what I mean? You have your pleasure and you have their pleasure, and and it's all this mutuality, and it just it doubles your pleasure.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. Yeah. And then it's really about bonding and attachment and closeness, you know, and such a sweetness that was meant to be there.

SPEAKER_00:

I agree. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

That makes sense. And I think that the education part is so critical.

SPEAKER_03:

Huge.

SPEAKER_00:

Know your body, know your partner's body.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

It's also about uh honoring each other.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And if you get to a gridlock, it's truly from what I'm hearing you say, it's truly working out. How do we get through this together?

SPEAKER_02:

That's is when there's that attitude, like honestly, some of the couples, some of my favorite couples I've worked with are couples who have come in with some really hard things, but they were willing to work it through together. Right. Without judgments, without blame, without shame. And like we're just in this together. How can we keep moving towards solutions?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And man, when they do that, that is good. That is when you get some.

SPEAKER_00:

That's when you get the movement there. Wow.

SPEAKER_02:

It's like they feel like power couples, you know. I'm like, oh, that's so great. You know? And the sad thing is, like, gosh, I've heard stories of like, you mentioned this earlier, of like people who are really naive.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And have had no, just were taught no, no, no, no, bad, bad, bad, bad, don't, don't, don't.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

And then they get married, and like honeymoons end up being traumatic.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

And then some of those couples, 30 years later, they still haven't recovered. Right. And it just makes me so sad. So I love, um, I did postgraduate work in human sexuality. And one of the things I still use it to this day, it's kind of like the model I work from. It was called DECA. It's dialogue, educate, coach, refer. So, you know, first we just start dialoguing. Well, tell me about your sexual life. How is it? What's worked? What it hasn't worked, what's been pleasurable, what's totally not pleasurable, what causes friction, you know, where do you feel sad? Has there been any trauma we need to work through? You know, so we just have that dialogue and start discovering. And then, and then it depends on what the answers to that are, then the amount of education. Some need a boatload of education, right? Have had none, still don't even know how their bodies sexually work.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And and some are pretty well educated.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Some have been educated by porn. I don't think porn is uh a good educator.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

And as a matter of fact, I've had some like younger people, like their education was porn, and they're like, oh, I I never want to have sex with another person. That looks terrifying and violent. And I'm like, oh man, I'm sorry. So then we we do the education, maybe re-educate or uneducate and re-educate.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

And then do some coaching around now, how can we make this work? And then for some, like for the female, if there's been sexual pain, I'll refer her to a pelvic floor specialist. Yeah, you know, and just like, okay, what do we need to do to get the help we need?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, because you can't overlook those things.

SPEAKER_02:

No.

SPEAKER_00:

And it's just a more broad conversation.

SPEAKER_03:

That's right.

SPEAKER_00:

I love that. I think that's so helpful because it's honoring to both sides.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, or to both partners, I should say. I just I I want to thank you for the courage.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

For the openness and the willingness to step into this arena and help reclaim it for such a beautiful and healthy purpose.

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

I just love the work you do.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Well, thank you. Sometimes it's been really great, and and people can be so appreciative. And then sometimes it's been really hard. Oh, I can imagine. And like, I want to be done with it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

You know what I mean? Like, oh, I can't do that anymore. And then, but my desire, I mean, truthfully, my desire is for every couple to have a healthy, happy, wonderful sex life together.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And to know you're gonna have times where it's not that.

SPEAKER_01:

Sure.

SPEAKER_02:

And that's okay. Work your way. They say right now, 60% of couples are having some sort of a sexual issue. So if you are, you're normal. If you're not, you will.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. It's what you do with it when you get there.

SPEAKER_02:

That's so true. Yeah. That's so true. And it can build a lot of like the conversation my husband and I had the other day. Like, you know, we're aging. So things don't always work the way they used to. Right. And so I could just sit with my darling man and say to him, Hey, baby, I love you. Like, I didn't marry you. Like I've always said, because my husband shaves his head kind of like you do. Honey, I told you when I married you I wasn't marrying you for your hair. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Like you are so much more because men can get the idea that, and they've been told you're supposed to perform.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

You know?

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

And I'm like, honey, I love you. I love all of you.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, and there's And that's such a beautiful message to receive. And it's like you guys have been saying that from the beginning.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

He said that to you as that struggle. Yeah. You get to say that back to him. That's right. And it's like it pendulates. And it's so beautiful.

SPEAKER_02:

Our relationship, yes, we have sweet and great sex together. And most importantly, is your personhood to me and mine to you.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And if we keep that first, then other things, as long as we're keeping the dialogue going. Yeah. It's such a gift. It's when we don't talk that things get weird. You know, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Well, thank you so much for being here today.

SPEAKER_02:

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00:

And talking about such a topic as this.

SPEAKER_02:

That's right. Well, my joy. Thank you for inviting me. Yeah. I appreciate the work you do. Thank you. Yeah. So thanks for having me.

People on this episode

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Dr. Lee Long

Host
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Lila Pond

Co-host
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Lila Pond, MA, LPC-S

Co-host